<Pretorian> Hi, and welcome to the fith official annual meeting for the Direct Connect Network Foundation.
<Pretorian> I am the interim supervisor of the meeting until the meeting supervisor has been elected.
<Pretorian> All who are here for today's meeting, please write now with your registered member name (or future registered member name). All those who are here agrees on the by-laws.
<Pretorian> Fredrik Ullner / Pretorian
<cologic> cologic / cologic
<poy> right in time! poy here
<Pretorian> (do not need real name)
<Pretorian> Great poy
<Pretorian> The first order of business is electing a meeting supervisor and a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting supervisor or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
<Pretorian> I nominate myself, Pretorian.
<Pretorian> (you can do +1/-1)
<poy> +1 for Pretorian
<Pretorian> There have been one nomination, for Pretorian to be voted supervisor for this meeting.
<cologic> 7 votes for Pretorian
<Pretorian> The second order of business is electing a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting secretary or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
<Pretorian> I nominate Crise.
<poy> +1 for Crise
<Delion> Crise +1
<cologic> +1 for Crise
<Sulan> +1 crise
<Pretorian> There have been one nomination, for Crise to be voted secretary for this meeting.
<Pretorian> The supervisor for this meeting is Pretorian. The secretary for this meeting is Crise.
<Pretorian> I have now been elected supervisor, and will continue on with the order of business as set forth by the by-laws of DCNF.
<cologic> 6 votes for Crise
<Pretorian> Second item is establishing voting length in time for each type of vote during the meeting. Specify now a voting length. If all members vote the same before the time elapse, thereby shortening the time for a vote.
<Pretorian> I nominate 2 minutes for each vote.
<Sulan> fair +1
<poy> ok for 2 minutes
<Crise> +1 2 min
<Dexo> +1, 2min
<cologic> +1 2 minutes
<Pretorian> 2 minutes shall be used henceforth in this meeting.
<Delion> 2 min is ok
<Pretorian> Item 3 in the by-laws: choosing vote counter and meeting protocol adjuster. Those who wishes to be the meeting vote counter or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
<Pretorian> I nominate cologic.
<cologic> 7 votes for 2 minutes
<poy> +1 for cologic
<Dexo> +1, cologic
<Crise> +1 cologic
<Pretorian> cologic is elected vote counter. cologic shall for the continuation of this meeting count all votes.
<Pretorian> Those who wishes to be the meeting protocol adjuster or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
<Pretorian> I nominate Sulan.
<cologic> 6 votes for cologic
<Dexo> +1 for Sulan
<poy> +1 for Sulan
<cologic> +1 for Sulan
<Sulan> +1 for myself
<cologic> 7 votes for Sulan
<Pretorian> Sulan is elected meeting protocol adjuster.
<Pretorian> Item 4 in the by-laws: has the meeting been announced correctly and fairly? Even though the meeting was announced a month later than intended.
<cologic> 7 votes for yes
<Pretorian> Item 5 in the by-laws: Meeting items shall be established here. State your intended meeting items that will discussed and possibly voted on in item 15.
<Pretorian> The following items have been submitted prior to the meeting. If you wish to add other items, feel free to do so. Meanwhile, I will be posting the items now and will go through each item with the appropriate text that has been sent to me.
<Pretorian> Pretorian-1: Review of last year's items and the organization's management of them
Pretorian-2: Changing bylaws
Crise-1: Protocol specification updates
Crise-2: Scheduled monthly organization meetings
Crise-3: Google for Non-Profit
Crise-4: Upgrade of organization's server
<Delion> Delion-1: Enabling TLS by default clientside for ADC hubs
<Pretorian> I will give 2 minutes for people to post the headline of their item and we will go through them each.
<Crise> Crise-5: website updates + forum registrations disabled
<Dexo> Dexo-1: ALPN proposal
<poy> poy-1) Setting up kallithea for current projects. (from previous meetings)
<poy> poy-2) Getting the word out and so other projects join us! List projects we should invite. (from previous meetings)
<Dexo> Dexo-2: The formal description for the proposal process.
<Pretorian> Ok, I will go through them each in their order.
<Pretorian> Please be mindful of brevity due to the number of items.
<Pretorian> Pretorian-1: Review of last year's items and the organization's management of them
<Pretorian> I am only posting this to have completeness but because we have had monthly meetings (or at least tried to have them), there isn't anything in particular from last year's annual meeting or monthly meeting.
<Pretorian> I believe Crise's points address some of the last year items and what we should do about them, e.g. how often we shall have meetings.
<Pretorian> I just want to bring up this as a point that we had 0 items in last years annual meeting.
<Pretorian> So I am going to move along to the next item.
<Pretorian> Please speak up if you disagree/have a comment, we will go through them in a reasonable pace.
<Pretorian> Pretorian-2: Changing bylaws
<Pretorian> See the first item at <https://forum.dcbase.org/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=1481>
<Pretorian> Change bylaws (https://www.dcbase.org/bylaws) to state the correct municipality in Sweden (since I have moved). This is basically just a formality but needs to be done.
Current phrasing: The organization is located in Sollentuna, Sweden.
Proposed phrasing: The organization is located in Hässleholm, Sweden.
To change bylaws there need to be two separate annual meetings (or extra meetings) so it won't take into effect immediately.
<Pretorian> The organization is registered in a particular municipality in Sweden, previously Sollentuna.
<Pretorian> Due to Sweden's structure and how it organizises organizations, it is required to file a change with the associated government agencies when an organization moves.
<Pretorian> However, because the bylaws specifically state the municipality (another requirement in Swedish law), we need to change the bylaws to reflect the new location (Hässleholm).
<Pretorian> This change is basically a formality but one I want to do to ensure that the organization's bylaws are accurate and its information.
<Pretorian> To change any part of the bylaws TWO annual meetings needs to be held.
<Pretorian> However, due to the nature of the change, I don't think we need to "rush" this change (e.g. through an extra annual meeting) so the next annual meeting will simply confirm the change.
<Pretorian> I.e., after this meeting/decision, the bylaws WILL NOT change automatically.
<Pretorian> It is not until the SECOND approval of the bylaws that they change.
<Pretorian> Now, it is required that TWO THIRDS (2/3) of members (or future members) vote YES to this change.
<Crise> Can additional changes be submitted in the interim or does it restart the process?
<Crise> (thinking grammar)
<Crise> I have no interest complicating things but the bylaws could use a grammar pass
<Pretorian> If you change ANYTHING at all the process restarts.
<Pretorian> For THAT section
<Crise> ok, then nevermind the grammar is perfect
<poy> the location change is fine by me.
<Pretorian> So I ask that people vote yes (or +1) or no (-1) for the change in the bylaws.
<Delion> +1 letd do it
<cologic> That's everyone, 7 votes for location change
<Pretorian> Great. Let's move on.
<Pretorian> Crise-1: Protocol specification updates
<Pretorian> This is item #2 in https://forum.dcbase.org/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=1481
<Pretorian> I will be posting it here, please excuse formatting.
<Pretorian> ADC protocol specification and associated documents, collectively herein referred as "specification", (https://adc.sourceforge.io/) needs to be updated or the migration to dcbase.org needs to be finalized ASAP, because:
Both the landing page and the old (yet still the authoritative as far as I know) documents refer places that no longer exists or have been relocated (e.g. wiki and SF svn repository).
Judging from recent discussion on the public hub there seems to be a distinct lack of known formal protocol or process for working on the ADC specification (specifically extension proposals, from the point of view of an outsider)
Informal: I went through the markdown files currently on adc.dcbase.org and I need someone to check for consistency with the last official copies, after that the release PRD file needs to be updated and some dead references need to be fixed at least (mostly in the "preface" sections of the document, my current chances aimed to be markup related for now)
Informal: the issue with git commits not reflecting immediately/correctly on subdomains (e.g. adc.dcbase.org, nmdc.dcbase.org and hublist.dcbase.org) should now be fixed.
<Pretorian> Crise has 'the floor'.
<Crise> Yes, basically this thing has been in limbo for a while, and current versions that are considered released refer to resources that no-longer exist
<Pretorian> Right, so I think this is also related to Dexo's item with regards to processes.
<Crise> Correct, namely the the wiki and svn repository as noted above... so the migration to adc.dcbase.org needs to be finalized
<Pretorian> A few things on the top off my mind;
1) The specs should be appropriately finalized/moved.
2) A process of submission should be more clear/laid out.
<Pretorian> I can take it upon myself to do these, however for 1) I require that someone (you Crise) review the structure of the documents so that lists etc are accurate.
<Pretorian> I believe there were some formatting issues that needed to be resolved that I didn't know how to do or similar.
<poy> then have <https://adc.sourceforge.io/> redirect to <https://adc.dcbase.org>?
<Crise> those formatting issues might now be fixed
<Pretorian> poy: Yes
<Pretorian> Ok, then I can begin migrating nmdc documents etc.
<cologic> Would this apply to the other protocol specifications too? Some of them are still on the non-HTTPS foo.sf.net.
<cologic> Because I apparently did/do not have the admin access to change them.
<Pretorian> Dexo, your item "Dexo-2: The formal description for the proposal process." is similar, do you wish to add anything to this discussion?
<Dexo> Mostly. Also, there should be a clear path to define not only extensions to existing protocols, but a more high-level changes.
And of course there should be some place to host those.
<Pretorian> Hm, what other protocol specificatons are there beyond adc and nmdc?
<Crise> I went through the ADC markdown documents in January, so Re 1) I basically need a second person to verify that stuff that wasn't supposed to change in the migration to adc.dcbase.org wasn't changed and then the old pages can be retired and a new version released officially once stuff like the PRD has been updated
<cologic> For example, http://nmdc.sourceforge.net/
<Crise> namely the preface sections need to be updated to refer to git not svn
<Pretorian> NMDC is not migrated from SF (I have admin) to dcbase.org because I wanted to wait for the formatting issues to be resolved.
<Pretorian> Crise: I will review said documents.
<Pretorian> I will update the necessary documents to reflect Git.
<Pretorian> I will migrate the necessary documents for NMDC (and any remaining in ADC) from SF to dcbase.org.
<Crise> can you remind me about the specifics of the formatting issues... page width is the only thing that I did not change for the protocol documents but it can also be done if you see it as necessary
<Pretorian> I will create a proposal for processes and provide the draft at the next meeting or before.
<Crise> (namely left it intact for consistency with other dcbase.org pages)
<Pretorian> Uhh, maybe only page width was the issue.
<Pretorian> I'd have to go back and check to be honest.
<Pretorian> I will update the necessary pages to not specify (wrong) Wiki etc.
<Crise> the width is trivial change to do but it will mean the pages will not look consistent with other dcbase.org pages, so I'll do it if you tell me to :)
<Pretorian> To extend Dexo's comment and our previous discussion, there should be a generic page for "DC protocol/network" info
<poy> on Dexo's point (a place to host proposals / discussion), <https://forum.dcbase.org/> seems like the right place? lacks document versioning but that can happen elsewhere.
<Pretorian> E.g., certain things may not be specific to each NMDC/ADC protocol but to the network as a whole. And the process for describing this should also exist.
<Crise> I also agree that "poke Pretorian" is not sufficient process for getting protocol proposals into the official documents
<Pretorian> The intention was to use the forum for discussions/proposals but unfortunately it was spammed into oblivion
<cologic> Especially (not to bridge topics too much here, and not discussing this in detail right now) regarding the ALPN protocol, which intrinsically operates on both ADC and NMDC.
<Pretorian> As I am the maintainer of ADC and NMDC documentation, I'll assign the work to myself to do this. If someone else wish to help, it'd be much appreciated, but I should be able to do it myself.
<Dexo> poy: It's up to DCNF members, but forum does not allow to publish individual revisions of the proposal. Anything based on Git+markdown might be more suitable. It's only my opinion though.
<Crise> I am available for technical stuff related to dcbase.org website as always :)
<Pretorian> At least, regarding the process, I'll write a more in-depth description on what should be/should not be proposals etc. A small guide on what one (I, specifically) looks for during proposal reviews.
<Dexo> Crise: Sorry, the "poke Pretorian" was a backup plan for detting at least some feedback - I've got none on the forum :)
<Crise> technically organization members can be given access to the project git repos, where they could make branches?
<Pretorian> Hm, sounds like a good plan Crise if that's possible?
<Dexo> Personal forks might be okay as well.
<Pretorian> It'd simplify the whole process, indeed, actually.
<Crise> the master branch is protected so they shouldn't be able to make changes to the live versions given correct permissions, personal forks would work as well
<Pretorian> Sounds good.
<Pretorian> Anything else regarding this? Otherwise we'll move on I think.
<cologic> I have nothing further to add.
<poy> for an actual doc, a doc collab system such as G Docs / launchpad "blueprints" / a git repo or page would be nice indeed...
<Crise> but I am not sure if non-members can currently make pull requests, someone who is not a member of the dcnf group on gitlab needs to check
<Dexo> Nothing else and we can mark Dexo-2 as resolved.
<Pretorian> Someone, Dexo?, please check if you can do pull-requests etc.
<poy> my point is the forum is fine for structured discussion while it can link to such a doc collab system for now.
<Crise> that is where the website(s) live
<Dexo> Will check it later, if it's okay.
<Crise> ok, just let me know
<Pretorian> Good, let's move on
<Crise> so I can make changes if needed
<Pretorian> Crise-2: Scheduled monthly organization meetings
<Pretorian> Informal organization meetings: I still believe that in general the idea of having a time slot reserved once a month is a good practice, however, experience has taught me that this doesn't seem to work.
If there is no visible progress people understandably don't feel like showing up, which means meetings get skipped (this in and of itself isn't a problem, if people knew when there is a meeting and when there isn't)
Again a point based on some recent comments on the hub: how to raise points for discussion and what are appropriate topics in organization meetings (both formal and informal) seems to be unclear.
Proposal: create a well defined process for submitting discussion items for monthly meetings (assuming we keep up with them) if none are submitted during the previous month then the current months meeting will effectively be cancelled. Additionally, I would suggest that if/when a meeting is cancelled due to no submitted discussion items any member of the board who is available could simply post a canned message about there being no meeting for this reason on the hub (the cancellation should happen e.g. 24 hours prior, if we stick to weekends when at least one person is likely to be online during that 48 hour period).
I am well aware that this is effectively turning what was originally intended as a completely informal process to keep people engaged with the organization into a more formal one with more structure. However, at this point I believe it might be necessary and it would also avoid stating that there has been no progress if it isn't needed.
Submission of discussion points could be through email, or alternatively the fate of the next months meeting could be decided at the end of the previous one (i.e. if nothing is likely to change over the next month then we can schedule accordingly), with the exception that items may still be submitted through email later if needed.
<Pretorian> (posting here for full documentation, see website item 3 for formatting)
<Pretorian> Crise has 'the floor'.
<Crise> I basically have nothing to add to this, I believe the practice is worth keeping but it needs to be refined to make sure that when we don't needlessly go through the motions when nothing has been done as that kills peoples willingness to attend
<Pretorian> I think it may be beneficial to have meetings less often, to be honest.
<Pretorian> For example, having meetings quarterly?
<Pretorian> And if someone wish to have a meeting a particular month, then just send that out as a request.
<Crise> Sounds like a practical approach
<Crise> Do note that December meeting is a lock, because it has to happen for the annual meeting scheduling to take place
<Crise> so this year doesn't repeat basically...
<cologic> It seems like to the extent that people are responding to lack of specific discussion items, then quarterly intervals provide a reasonable middle ground between monthly (too frequent, evidently, for the amount of items people seem to want) and annual (too infrequent for only meetings, probably).
<poy> when I miss a meeting the reason is always "life" but never lack of motivation / "willingness to attend" as you put it. I can kind of enjoy these formal motions once in a while... :)
<Pretorian> Well, there only needs to go out a call a month before, no need to hold a meeting.
<Delion> "the idea of having a time slot reserved once a month" I'd like to have a reserved time on this hub once_a_week. To simply _talk_ about current things.
<Delion> wihout making it official
<Pretorian> But yeah, we need to be more firm with respect to the (required) annual meeting.
<cologic> poy: See, that's why I put the "to the extent that ..." weasel wording in. It renders the whole comment conditional on the veracity of the belief stated, just epistemologically safer.
<Crise> Dexo the original idea for monthly meetings was also to make sure people are here available to talk to (e.g. for proposals)
<Pretorian> So it's important to separate annual meetings (required by law and bylaws) that are very formal, monthly (quarterly) meetings that are less formal and random "let's talk" that can occur any time.
<Delion> 'random "let's talk" that can occur any time.' but not all will read this
<Pretorian> The annual meeting (this) needs to hold a specific structure, the monthly/quarterly are just slightly formal to have good etiquette.
<Pretorian> So, I'd suggest
1) Quarterly meetings instead of monthly meetings
2) A process, per Crise, for which people submit items and see what is on the schedule for the meeting
<Pretorian> (For 2-- basically crise's comment)
<provolone> when you have meetings and meetings I am available to you as a waiter
<Crise> 2) namely as a means to know if there is a meeting as scheduled or not
<Dexo> I just hope the feedback won't get "aligned" to those meetings :)
<Pretorian> Do people then agree to quarterly meetings?
<Pretorian> (Similar place/time)
<poy> +/- 0
<Pretorian> (+1 for clarity as I proposed it)
<Crise> First sunday of first month of every quarter? +1
<Pretorian> So January, April, July, October?
<Pretorian> Uhh, I guess January is out
<Pretorian> Because of the annual meeting
<Crise> do we need both a formal and informal meeting in first quarter?
<Pretorian> Not really.
<Pretorian> Can just say annual January formal, April informal, July informal, october informal
<Delion> just not 1 January...
<Crise> Sounds good, although I do agree with Dexo, proposal etc. feedback hopefully won't get by default aligned to these
<Pretorian> Indeed, Crise.
<Pretorian> All right, can we get a vote count so we can move on?
<Crise> We won't hold meetings on calendar holidays anyways, in those cases we reschedule
<Pretorian> Yes, just good to have "kinda first of those months"
<Pretorian> All right, let's move on.
<Pretorian> Crise-3: Google for Non-Profit
<Pretorian> Item 4
<cologic> (Is this vote taken to start at 55 minutes after the hour? Or including the votes from 4 minutes ago?)
<cologic> (The proposals are related but not identical.)
<Pretorian> This is from last year's monthly meetings: I brought up the possibility of signing the organization up for Google for Nonprofits
Unfortunately my attempts to register for it is stopped by the need to "get validated" by TechSoup Sverige.
While I could probably get through the form on my own, I haven't used Swedish in any capacity since 09, and even then my skills could be considered elementary at best, so I really can't check any of the fine print or deal with any direct email correspondence if that is involved.
The motivation for this is generally to get access to G-Suite for Nonprofits to have real @dcbase.org emails without the overhead of maintaining and securing (against spam) a mail server, but here are all the benefits anyway.
Currently the organization mails getting forwarded to personal emails is inconvenient at best and a privacy concern in the worst case scenario (e.g. if someone decides to leave the organization they should also loose access to historical record of the emails, specifically e.g. donations from paypal).
<Pretorian> Uhh, after, I think
<Pretorian> Others were +0 anyway
<cologic> Okay, so +5 votes (including Pretorian) on 4 quarterly meetings with some conditions
<Pretorian> Re Google for nonprofits -- I have (now, today) signed up for TechSoup. They require the last annual meeting's notes, so I thought I'd send them this protocol once completed.
<Pretorian> Once registered, I will sign up for google for non-profits, as I think it's a great idea.
<Crise> Which means I need to actually do a formal protocol, unlike last year (oops)
<Pretorian> Yes :P
<Delion> Google for nonprofits = Google Suite?
<Crise> G Suite and some other stuff yes
<Pretorian> They state they need a signature (on a piece of paper), not sure if it suffices with mine alone.
<Pretorian> (or if they need it if we have the exact protocol)
<Crise> You are the only one that can sign for the org afaik
<Pretorian> Oh, right, yes, indeed.
<Delion> it's nice. running it with my domain since 2008.
<Pretorian> Anything else we shall add here? Crise?
<poy> that "G" in the name makes me quite wary. I am generally against providing anything more than I have to to organizations whose money comes in large part from exploiting user data. those emails you want to move there will not be "private".
<Pretorian> If people have a bad experience and don't think we should do this, please speak up.
<Crise> Not really my main motivation is noted in the topic submission
<Pretorian> Hm, valid concern poy.
<cologic> I'm aligned with poy on this. I don't strongly object, but in general, I'm wary of Google.
<Crise> poy: your concern is noted, but I don't want orgnization emails forwarded to my personal email going forward either
<Crise> nor do I want to host a mail server on dcbase,org in particular... since it is direct extra work for me
<Pretorian> (For reference by the way, by Swedish law, organizations are required to be able to provide member lists upon requests to the government (these are currently done primarily through e-mail).)
<cologic> The other concern I have relates to what recourse might be available if Google decides to shut down the DCNF account. From all reports I've read, they have no support to speak of that would likely address/reverse such an action. There's apparently a lack of accountability, an opacity, there.
<cologic> I don't think this is critical for DCNF so long as no existentially important accounts run solely through it.
<Pretorian> Re backup, can we set up something on the server that downloads the mails etc?
<poy> another concern is if / when Google shuts the whole G-for-non-profits project down (see Reader / Google Code / etc).
<cologic> Generically, such software certainly exists, isync/mbsync, etc.
<Crise> I am not sure about downloading data backups off of G suite mailboxes
<Pretorian> Google does have a habit of shutting stuff down, seemingly randomly.
<Pretorian> I'd suggest that we set up the groundwork for POTENTIALLY using G-suit (etc) and decide at a different time (next meeting for instance) if we should move forward with actually storing said e-mails there.
<Pretorian> (i.e., registration setup etc)
<Crise> I am open to alternatives that don't add direct material cost or maintenance cost
<Crise> note that my personal email is already gmail, so anything forwarded by [email protected] right now is already in the hands of google sadly
<poy> Crise's email point remains important; I wish there were alternatives to this Google product (not aware of any myself). perhaps the likes of FSF / Apache Foundation? in various meetings I have been to (FOSDEM being the last one), I can't recall Google ever appearing in a positive light while these (FSF / Apache) do provide services to various FOSS projects.
<Pretorian> poy, can yo investigate this?
<Crise> when we contacted FSF about something I recall getting cold shoulder in that particular instance (was GPL related I believe)
<poy> I will look into this! but that does not stop you from going forward with Google in the time being of course.
<Pretorian> There are at the moment three things one can vote on
1) Vote on laying groundwork of G-suite (bascially registration but not changing in the mail addresses)
2) Vote on following through with G-suite the whole way.
3) Vote on doing this management but with a different provider if it exists.
<Pretorian> So I'd vote on 1 (what I'm doing now) and 3 (what poy's action now is)
<Pretorian> And decide 2) at a different meeting
<Pretorian> Will this work for others?
<Dexo> 1 and 3 sounds good
<Crise> I am inclined to agree as well
<Delion> yandex has same service afaik
<cologic> Sure, I'm +1 on (1) and (3) at least.
<Pretorian> poy, +1/-1 on (1)/(3)?
<cologic> I respect Crise's point regarding personal email addresses, etc.
<poy> same, +1 for #1 & #3 hoping #2 can await another meeting.
<Pretorian> Great, let's move on.
<Pretorian> Crise-4: Upgrade of organization's server
<Pretorian> Item 5 <https://forum.dcbase.org/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=1481>
<Pretorian> Informal: the dcbase.org is due for an upgrade from xenial to bionic (i.e. the next LTS release of Ubuntu), however, as I attempted to do this I was faced with missing update paths for packages mainly python related, something ruby related and one thing about systemd. The python and ruby packages are non-critical most likely, but the systemd package has me worried. Basically take this as me shifting responsibility to anyone more familiar with upgrading ubuntu (I am partial to CentOS myself, where an upgrade == reinstall) last time I upgraded the server to a major new version of ubuntu if memory serves it died or got stuck during boot and OVH had to manually resolve it from their end.
<cologic> +5 on (1) and (3) jointly
<Pretorian> Thanks, cologic.
<Pretorian> I have no opinion on this item and rely on Crise's expertise.
<Pretorian> I have no qualm with just restarting from scratch to be honest.
<Crise> I am basically looking for someone who knows more about ubuntu to do this... since we have no option except to do it over ssh
<poy> from experience, installing from scratch is safer than upgrading between 2 LTS's. then again upgrading is supposed to work.
<Pretorian> I do not know if we can just ask OVH if they can install CentOS instead.
<Dexo> I've seen some discussions about using Docker for hosted services. I can help in migrating to it - should remove any problems with upgrades later.
<Pretorian> (or whatever system you'd prefer)
<Kcchouette> I disagree with docker for production
<Dexo> ...some discussions in previous meetings
<cologic> They key trick I've found here is to keep the session open so that one can repair apt-get errors as they occur.
<Pretorian> cologic is this something you can assist Crise with?
<cologic> But it's still pretty risky, since the way Ubuntu updates can get stuck on any of hundreds (thousands?) of installed packages.
<Pretorian> Alternatively poy that can speak French :)
<Crise> I have no issue with ubuntu per se, just that it is not currently running the server version of it which causes me great anquish every time it upgrades firefox :P
<poy> best let the person who is most going to set the server up (Crise) use the system he's familiar with.
<Pretorian> Or should we simply ask OVH to change operating systems, if possible?
<cologic> The issue I have is that I don't know how the server's supposed to run, overall, regarding what services are avilable, et cetera.
<cologic> Which makes me not very confident regarding upgrades on it, just personally.
<Crise> if we are going to go with build the server from scrarch we need to backup anything not under version control first, i.e. namely this hub at least
<Pretorian> Crise: Can you check if we can reset with a different operating system?
<Pretorian> Yes, defintely.
<provolone> ovh https://www.ovh.it/order/vps/#/legacy/v ... enter~'gra) yes centos
<Pretorian> quick search yields <https://askubuntu.com/questions/511463/ ... -to-server>
<poy> xenial is fine though... bionic is still quite young; I'd expect (have already had) quirks with it.
<cologic> xenial apparently has 2 more years of support.
<Pretorian> I'd suggest that someone (Crise/poy?) checks if it's possible to move to CentOS (or something else), otherwise that cologic will be able to help.
<Pretorian> Who can check if we can switch? Crise/poy?
<Crise> I have never dealt with OVH directly before
<Pretorian> Crise, can you do otherwise a full system backup and distribute it to e.g. me/poy/cologic?
<Pretorian> Poy, can you check with OVH?
<provolone> OVH Good
<poy> surely we can. haven't used OVH but their competitors all provide that.
<poy> yes will ask. but Crise, are you ok with setting up a CentOS from scratch?
<Crise> and if we can switch to any supported server version of ubuntu that you think should work long term I am happy to live with ubuntu-server over centos if it comes to that (as with ubuntu you at least have the option of an inplace upgrade)
<provolone> if you need or problems, even by phone help
<Crise> so, to answer poy, either works for me
<poy> best if you ask as this has to be planned with them to avoid too much downtime...
<Pretorian> Crise: 1. backup 2. check if migration is possible
<Pretorian> Does that work?
<Crise> what is the appropriate contact channel?
<Pretorian> Mail I think
<Pretorian> Or through their portal
<poy> usually ticket through their web interface.
<Crise> who technically controls the account? (do I have access to this portal?)
<Pretorian> I control it, you should have access to the portal.
<Pretorian> I will provide you otherwise details.
<Pretorian> Kinda want to move on if that's fine?
<Crise> ok I will check if I have them somewhere but I do know I have never logged onto an OVH portal
<Crise> yes fine
<Pretorian> Ok, I'll give you account details later
<Pretorian> Let's move on.
<Pretorian> Delion-1: Enabling TLS by default clientside for ADC hubs
<Pretorian> Floor's yours.
<Delion> I did TLS tests for modern DC clients
<Pretorian> However, I'm not sure what the organization can "do" here, except ask any developer to do so. (E.g. poy)
<Delion> https://habr.com/ru/post/438922 posted it all here (in Russian)
<Delion> I found that by default TLS support is disabled
<Delion> incoming connections working, but not outgoing
<Delion> so, my proposal is to make TLS connections is default for ADC hubs
<poy> do you mean client-client connections or client-hub connections?
<cologic> This is distinct from ADCS hubs?
<Delion> the tru is that most ADC hubs are ADCs
<poy> I'm pretty sure client-client connections in an ADCS hub (not plain ADC) go through TLS.
<Delion> I can make a quick test right now
<Crise> correct me if I am wrong but I believe Delion means that you can make an unsecure (non-TLS) connection on a supposedly secure (ADCS) hub is a case that should not happen
<Crise> by default
<Delion> at least for AirDC++ it's optional to run TLS on ADC or ADCs hubs
<Pretorian> (Translation by the way <https://translate.google.com.hk/transla ... st/438922/> )
<cologic> Delion: has Crise corectly characterized this?
<Delion> mmmm, probably yes
<Pretorian> This feels like a discussion/bug that can be had after the annual meeting as it doesn't pertain to DCNF. Would it work for you Delion to continue the discussion after the meeting?
<poy> I just tried in this hub with Pretorian; got TLS with "ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256" as the cipher.
<Delion> right now I did non TLS connection DC++ -> AirDC++ on ADCs hub
<Delion> poy: thats depends on client settings
<Delion> Pretorian: yes
<poy> in this case some client settings need adjustments / recommendations. seems like a good place to discuss this. :)
<Pretorian> my settings
<Pretorian> Require TLS ADC client-client connections [CHECKED]
Allow TLS connections to hubs without trusted [CHECKED]
Allow TLS connections to clients without trusted [CHECKED]
support directly [CHECKED]
Always attempt [NOT CHECKED]
<Delion> Pretorian: your settings is OK, but they are not default =)
<Pretorian> Delion/poy: Can you test this thoroughly after the meeting and provide a proposal/recommendation?
<Pretorian> (To move things along.)
<Delion> Require TLS ADC client-client connections [unCHECKED] by default. Same with all DC clients.
<Delion> Pretorian: I'm ready
<poy> indeed but even with that unchecked, I got Pretorian's list via TLS. yep needs more investigation after this meeting.
<Pretorian> Good, thanks.
<Pretorian> Next item
<Pretorian> Crise-5: website updates + forum registrations disabled
<Delion> poy: that's depends on Pretorian settings too)
<Pretorian> ("Forum registrations have been disabled for the time being. If you want or need an account one can be created for you if requested through the organization DC hub.")
<Crise> Just a on the record notice about disabling the forum registrations due to spam (sent email at Q3 last year but that only went to the board through emai)
<Pretorian> Ok, anything else you'd like to add?
<Crise> also the website has been updated to bootstrap 4
<poy> what do we need to enable regs back? forum upgrade?
<Crise> which is why it looks slightly different
<€nclave™> good antispam
<Crise> also updated phpbb (both installations)
<Crise> (second installation is dcpp archive)
<Crise> re enabling registrations, we can try it for 24 hours and see what happens
<Pretorian> Can we change to a better captcha?
<Crise> I doubt the phpbb upgrade did much... we currently use recaptcha afaik
<Pretorian> The one were you click "i am not a robot" is used in lots of places.
<Dexo> Regarding spam and forum update, is something like Discourse is considered as an upgrade path?
<€nclave™> w and answer works better than that
<€nclave™> w and answer
<€nclave™> just make it harder than bots logic
<Dexo> We operate one Discourse instance and never had any spam on it.
<Kcchouette> is it used by many peoples?
<Crise> I don't know about discourse, but I do agree that this might be phpbb problem... as in it has been around for so long and it has a certain degree of popularity
<Dexo> let me share the link, it's quite nice and yes, it's used by many opensource communities
<Crise> we can try enabling registrations temporarily and see what happens (the I am not a bot captcha is what we are using, re Pretorian)
<Pretorian> Ok, please do and let's see what happens.
<Pretorian> If it solves our previous issues, great.
<Crise> I know what discourse is, just not sure about a migration path from phpbb @ Dexo
<Pretorian> If not, maybe time to see other venues.
<Pretorian> Let's move on.
<Dexo> I've checked it and there is a script to migrate
<Pretorian> Next item.
<Pretorian> Dexo-1: ALPN proposal
<provolone> for phpbb registration you can accept the recordings manually !!
<Dexo> ALPN proposal
(https://github.com/direct-connect/proto ... 01-alpn.md)
In short, it proposes to enable ALPN extension when making TLS connection, either C-C or C-H.
Doing this allows to pick any protocol (NMDC, ADC, or any other) individually for each connection, before an NMDC/ADC handshake.
Effectively this will:
- Allow mixed ADC/NMDC hubs.
- Allow future protocol development.
- Do this in a backward-compatible way.
- Should make the network more secure (ALPN requires TLS).
Since DCNF maintains the protocol documentation, I propose it here and hope to get some feedback and eventually include it as a standard for DC network.
I will also coordinate an effort to implement and test it.
<Pretorian> ALPN proposal is <https://github.com/direct-connect/proto ... 01-alpn.md>
<Pretorian> I and Dexo had a discussion prior to the meeting: <https://pastebin.com/WSM2wt7s>
<Pretorian> (in case it doesn't show up in +history)
<Pretorian> Others should provide feedback, and with the previous item regarding documentation and processes I shall document those.
<€nclave™> is this on client side it hub server
<€nclave™> ok realize that most if not all his dev is dead
<Dexo> A bit more work on the hub, if it does not support TLS already.
<Pretorian> Anything else you wish to add Dexo? I think more discussion can be had after the meeting as it is, similarly, not specific to DCNF beyond documentation.
<Dexo> Yes, one more thing.
<Dexo> Is there a list of active projects and their maintainers, so I can contact them directly?
<Dexo> (re: "devs are dead" point)
<€nclave™> check forum.dchublist.org
<Crise> Not currently, short of motd on this hub... but that is old
<Pretorian> There is <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... t_software> but not any activitty information.
<€nclave™> section supported hub softs
<Dexo> Yes, most information is outdated, hence the question.
<Crise> Such a list should exist on dcbase.org imo. but that is not the topic here
<poy> the goal (smooth migration path to ADC) is very laudable. I want to dive into it some more but not right now... the only point that springs to mind when making ADC & NMDC live together is nicknames vs CIDs (& nickname restrictions in NMDC which ADC doesn't have).
<Pretorian> ncdc <adc://dc.blicky.net:2780>
<Pretorian> (at least some places for development)
<Pretorian> (i don't know of their activity mind you)
<Dexo> Pretorian: Thanks!
<€nclave™> use dchublist.org/stats
<€nclave™> all links are live
<Dexo> poy: Yes, we are aware of it and we are working on the proposal for client identification in case of mixed NMDC/ADC connections.
<Pretorian> Feel free to create a post or similar on the forum regarding the activity status.
<Pretorian> Otherwise I think we shall move on.
<Pretorian> Next item
<Pretorian> poy-1) Setting up kallithea for current projects. (from previous meetings)
<Dexo> Also I want to mention that we are developing a hub to prove the concept:
It's running on
In case the development of most hub software is dead, we will try to make it fully functional.
<Pretorian> poy, has anything been done with respect to kallithea?
<poy> send "+about" here - decent list. ^^
<poy> nothing new about kallithea, see <https://www.dcbase.org/files/meetings/2 ... g_chat.log> (look for "poy-1") for our previous discussion. however now waiting for <https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/31600> (mercurial support into gitlab) might be a better alternative. :)
<Pretorian> I'm fine with alternatives
<Crise> +1 for gitlab :D
<Pretorian> You still have that as an action I ugess
<Kcchouette> why mercurial is a need?
<poy> I will answer by copying something I have written in here previously Kcchouette:
been using both hg & git at work, I feel much safer with hg... also it has a larger feature set than git, especially <https://www.mercurial-scm.org/doc/evolution/> to share draft csets around and marking them obsolete when working with them which I know no equivalent of git-side... what I want is for DC projects to have their own code hosting via <https://kallithea-scm.org/> or the like (we already have servers to host it). though of course <https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/31600> (mercurial support into gitlab) would be the best should it come to fruition (they're getting close!)...
<poy> anyway, this remains a TODO. we can move on.
<Pretorian> poy-2) Getting the word out and so other projects join us! List projects we should invite. (from previous meetings)
<Pretorian> Well, seems this day has shown an incredible support at least :)
<poy> this is also a TODO, read more at <https://www.dcbase.org/files/meetings/2 ... g_chat.log>. to be kept in mind so we don't forget what DCNF is all about.
<Pretorian> Let's move on.
<Pretorian> That concludes all items from Item 5 in the by-laws.
<Pretorian> (you will have one more time later on)
<Pretorian> Item 6 in the by-laws:
a) Announce the board's organization story for the last year.
b) Announce the accounting and economic state for the last year.
<Pretorian> Regarding a) this was already discussed/provided in my Pretorian-1
<Pretorian> Regarding item B, the following is the financial state.
<Pretorian> The organization has received money trough PayPal and in 2019-02-10 16:04 (CET), the current balance was 214.41 EUR (€).
There have been one outgoing purchases, and that was of the OVH server that the server the organization uses. The purcahse was for 326.76 EUR (€). The domain's cost should have been included but I could not find the balance change, so evidently I must have paid it from my personal account (this is fine by me), however this should hopefully change over the next period (2019).
The total amount the organization has accumulated over this year was therefore 214.41+326.76=541.17 EUR (€). (See also the balance from last year in the annual meeting in 2018.)
The organization has received its money through membership fees and donations.
The information received from the Swedish taxation service is that there are no outstanding items to DCNF's submission for 2018 (finance year 2017). (0 € in tax etc)
<Pretorian> I have nothing further to add to this, so I think that concludes item 6, unless other board members (Crise and cologic) have anything additional to add.
<cologic> I have nothing to add.
<Crise> Pretorian: the domain was supposed to be moved to the org, per last annual meeting though... if I recall?
<Pretorian> (or if others have comments, I'll let a few minutes to pass so people can read)
<Crise> Just slightly confused that is all :), otherwise nothing to add
<Pretorian> Yes, the organization is now the owner of the domain
<Pretorian> However, I must've not changed the invoice address or something
<Pretorian> The org owns the domain, I checked today.
<Pretorian> Continuing, speak up if anyone have any comments.
<Pretorian> Item 7 in the by-laws: regarding auditor, the board has internally audited purchases and incoming transactions and due to the low amount of outgoing purchases (one, 1), an external auditor has not deemed necessary.
<Pretorian> Item 8 in the by-laws: discharing the board of responsibility.
<Pretorian> (Discharge = yes, means that the board should be replaced altogether).
<Crise> no (secretary is a slacker though)
<cologic> (+6 so far)
<Pretorian> (i'll wait the 2 min since it's one of the most important items)
<cologic> Okay, 6 votes against discharging the board of responsibility and 1 abstain.
<Pretorian> Item 9 in the by-laws: the member fees.
<Pretorian> State now if you wish to propose a different amount, than the current 10 Euros.
<Pretorian> €10 is fine by me.
<poy> +1 for keeping 10€
<Crise> +1, no need to change
<cologic> +1 for keeping €10
<Pretorian> (having said that, people should remember their payment after the meeting!)
<cologic> +7 for €10
<Pretorian> Item 10 in the by-laws: Establishment of eventual plan for the organization and treatment of the budget for the coming year.
<Pretorian> So basically the inital plan is for the OVH server and the domain costs.
<Pretorian> OVH server is, as above 326 € and domain is 10€ I think.
<Pretorian> Any other costs are not forseen at this time.
<Crise> I would like to add that I think the server is expensive for what it is currently used for so, we should make better use of it :)
<Pretorian> Item 11 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period.
<Sulan> 336 - 70 euro how can that make any sense ?
<Sulan> Pretorian you the last youself?
<Pretorian> What do you mean Sulan?
<poy> the server has to hold off "attacks" so let's not get too cheap. :) and the money is there.
<Sulan> 10 X 7 members = 70 euro
<poy> I usually give more. ;)
<Pretorian> Well, 1) we have not had 7 members, but 2) we've had people provide donations
<Sulan> server cost 336 euro
<Sulan> ok good
<Pretorian> See <https://www.dcbase.org/contribute> for people that have donated.
<Pretorian> This list is slightly outdated though (entire 2018 not included)
<Pretorian> I'll put an action on myself to update that thing...
<Pretorian> Item 11 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period.
<Pretorian> (say a person's name to NOMINATE them, then we'll vote on it)
<Pretorian> Pretorian, cologic and Crise are nominated (others may continue to be nominated).
<Pretorian> If you wish for Pretorian to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
<cologic> (+6 so far for Pretorian)
<Pretorian> I'll declare Pretorian as elected to the board.
<Pretorian> If you wish for cologic to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
<cologic> +6 so far for cologic
<Pretorian> I'll declare cologic as elected to the board.
<Pretorian> If you wish for Crise to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
<cologic> (+5 so far...)
<Pretorian> I'll declare Crise as elected to the board.
<Pretorian> The board is now complete and consist of Pretorian, Crise and cologic.
<Pretorian> Item 13 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the stand-in board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period.
<Sulan> +1 for all 4
<Crise> we need a second one?
<Pretorian> Don't need a second one
<Pretorian> If you wish for poy to be elected in the supplementary board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
<cologic> +7 for poy
<Pretorian> I'll declare poy as elected to the supplementary board.
<Pretorian> The supplementary board is now complete and consist of poy.
<Pretorian> Item 15 in the by-laws:Treatment of the board suggestions and motions.
<Pretorian> So I kinda screwed up, our lengthy discussion should've been here.
<Pretorian> (re all items)
<Pretorian> So we've had this already.
<provolone> server 336Euro year or month?
<Pretorian> Let's continue.
<Pretorian> Item 16, the last item, is "additional items", so the floor's open.
<Pretorian> Does anyone have anything they wish to be included in this annual meeting's discussion?
<Pretorian> I don't have anything.
<Sulan> nothing from here
<Crise> The additional item I have is scheduling the next quarterly meeting
<poy> nothing here.
<Crise> in lieu of a current schedule to use as a template
<cologic> I have nothing I wish to be included.
<Crise> (read: what do I put on the website?)
<Pretorian> 7th of April, I'd say
<Crise> otherwise nothing here either and ok
<provolone> my discussion is always the same, needless to say the same thing
<Pretorian> (I will possibly be unavailable due to personal life possibly occured then, but will notify beforehand)
<Delion> well, I (and provolo) wanted to discuss sutiations with FlylinkDC++
<Pretorian> Well, that's outside DCNF I think.
<Crise> is this something the organization could do something about?
<provolone> YES YES
<Pretorian> If there's nothing else to discuss I guess we can conclude this annual DCNF meeting. Next annual meeting will be announced in december.
<Delion> well...you could at least tell if it's right or not
<Pretorian> This will conclude the 2019-02-10 annual meeting of DCNF, thank you all.