[2016-01-10 19:05:52] Hi, and welcome to the second official meeting for the Direct Connect Network Foundation. [2016-01-10 19:05:58] I am the interim supervisor of the meeting until the meeting supervisor has been elected. [2016-01-10 19:06:03] All who are here for today's meeting, please write now with your registered member name. All those who are here agrees on the by-laws. [2016-01-10 19:06:08] Fredrik Ullner / Pretorian [2016-01-10 19:06:21] Markus Willman / Crise [2016-01-10 19:06:28] poy / poy [2016-01-10 19:06:31] cologic / cologic [2016-01-10 19:07:04] eMTee has said he is here, but only at times [2016-01-10 19:07:07] eMTee / eMTee [2016-01-10 19:07:10] Oh, good :) [2016-01-10 19:07:14] The first order of business is electing a meeting supervisor and a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting supervisor or wish to nominate someone, write now a name. [2016-01-10 19:07:19] I nominate myself, Pretorian. [2016-01-10 19:07:34] +1 [2016-01-10 19:07:37] +1 [2016-01-10 19:07:38] +1 [2016-01-10 19:07:42] +1 [2016-01-10 19:07:48] There have been one nomination, for Pretorian to be voted supervisor for this meeting. [2016-01-10 19:07:55] The second order of business is electing a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting secretary or wish to nominate someone, write now a name. [2016-01-10 19:08:01] I nominate myself, Pretorian. [2016-01-10 19:08:05] +1 [2016-01-10 19:08:08] +1 [2016-01-10 19:08:10] +1 [2016-01-10 19:08:16] +1 [2016-01-10 19:08:17] There have been one nomination, for Pretorian to be voted secretary for this meeting. [2016-01-10 19:08:21] The supervisor for this meeting is Pretorian. The secretary for this meeting is Pretorian. [2016-01-10 19:08:26] I have now been elected supervisor, and will continue on with the order of business as set forth by the by-laws of DCNF. [2016-01-10 19:08:31] Second item is establishing voting length in time for each type of vote during the meeting. Specify now a voting length. If all members vote the same before the time elapse, thereby shortening the time for a vote. [2016-01-10 19:08:37] I nominate 2 minutes for each vote. [2016-01-10 19:08:41] +1 [2016-01-10 19:08:54] +1 [2016-01-10 19:08:54] +1 [2016-01-10 19:08:55] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:10] 5 votes for 2 minutes. 2 minutes shall be used henceforth in this meeting. [2016-01-10 19:09:16] Item 3 in the by-laws: choosing vote counter and meeting protocol adjuster. Those who wishes to be the meeting vote counter or wish to nominate someone, write now a name. [2016-01-10 19:09:18] poy [2016-01-10 19:09:29] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:30] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:32] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:35] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:37] poy is eleected vote counter with 5 votes. poy shall for the continuation of this meeting count all votes. [2016-01-10 19:09:41] Those who wishes to be the meeting protocol adjuster or wish to nominate someone, write now a name. [2016-01-10 19:09:44] cologic [2016-01-10 19:09:45] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:47] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:47] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:55] +1 [2016-01-10 19:09:57] 5 votes for cologic to be the protocl adjuster. [2016-01-10 19:10:05] cologic is elected meeting protocol adjuster. [2016-01-10 19:10:10] Item 4 in the by-laws: has the meeting been announced correctly and fairly? [2016-01-10 19:10:11] yes [2016-01-10 19:10:16] yes [2016-01-10 19:10:18] yes [2016-01-10 19:10:21] yes [2016-01-10 19:10:27] yes [2016-01-10 19:10:30] 5 "yes" [2016-01-10 19:10:33] Item 5 in the by-laws: Meeting items shall be established here. State your intended meeting items that will discussed and possibly voted on in item 15. [2016-01-10 19:10:37] Only state the "headline" of your meeting items. [2016-01-10 19:11:28] poy-1: Seeking legal advice from the EFF [2016-01-10 19:11:30] * Pretorian-1: Scheduling of recurring meetings and timetables [2016-01-10 19:11:33] The state of the website and related organization services, problems and solutions [2016-01-10 19:11:59] Pretorian-2: Review of last year's items and the organization's management of them [2016-01-10 19:12:28] I will allow five minutes for additional thought, or if you wish to continue to next item, just write "continue" [2016-01-10 19:12:37] continue [2016-01-10 19:12:50] continue [2016-01-10 19:12:53] Pretorian-2 includes the points mentioned at the last meeting? [2016-01-10 19:12:53] continue [2016-01-10 19:12:59] continue [2016-01-10 19:13:20] poy: Yeah, I figured insofar as "have we completed this?" [2016-01-10 19:13:31] continue [2016-01-10 19:13:58] can we get a count on that? [2016-01-10 19:14:01] :P [2016-01-10 19:14:07] 5 for "continue". [2016-01-10 19:14:43] Item 6 in the by-laws: a) Announce the board's organization story for the last year. b) Announce the accounting and economic state for the last year. [2016-01-10 19:15:04] Regarding item A, this will be discussed further in Item 15, Pretorian-2 [2016-01-10 19:15:23] Regarding item B, the following is the financial state. [2016-01-10 19:16:00] The organization has received money through PayPal and in 2016-01-10 19:15, the current balance was 222,48 EUR. [2016-01-10 19:16:25] There have been one outgoing purchase, and that was of the OVH server that the server the organization uses. [2016-01-10 19:16:34] That purchase was for 299.85 Eur. [2016-01-10 19:17:13] The total amount the organization has accumulated over this year was therefore 222,48+299.85= 522,33 Eur [2016-01-10 19:17:28] This has been through membership fees and donations. [2016-01-10 19:17:51] That will conclude item 6, unless other board members (cologic and poy) have anything additional to add. [2016-01-10 19:18:09] I have nothing additional to add. [2016-01-10 19:18:30] Continuing. [2016-01-10 19:18:33] nothing to add, let's move on. [2016-01-10 19:19:22] Item 7 in the by-laws: regarding auditor, the board has internally audited purchases and incoming transactions and due to the low amount of outgoing purchases (one, 1), an external auditor has not deemed necessary. [2016-01-10 19:20:16] Item 8 in the by-laws: discharing the board of responsibility. [2016-01-10 19:20:39] If anyone wish to discharge the board, write "yes", otherwise write "no". [2016-01-10 19:20:59] Hello All [2016-01-10 19:21:01] (Discharge = yes, means that the board should be replaced altogether). [2016-01-10 19:21:13] no [2016-01-10 19:21:14] No [2016-01-10 19:21:15] No [2016-01-10 19:21:21] no [2016-01-10 19:21:23] no [2016-01-10 19:21:29] 5 votes not to discharge the board. [2016-01-10 19:21:52] Item 9 in the by-laws: the member fees. [2016-01-10 19:22:10] State now if you wish to propose a different amount, than the current 10 Euros. [2016-01-10 19:23:09] ok for 10 €. [2016-01-10 19:23:13] +1 [2016-01-10 19:23:18] +1 [2016-01-10 19:23:32] +1 [2016-01-10 19:23:45] +1 [2016-01-10 19:24:16] Count, please [2016-01-10 19:24:38] 3 members agree on 10 €. [2016-01-10 19:24:45] 5 members agree on 10 €. [2016-01-10 19:24:45] 5* :P [2016-01-10 19:25:02] +ping [2016-01-10 19:25:10] Let's move on [2016-01-10 19:25:14] Item 10 in the by-laws: Establishment of eventual plan for the organization and treatment of the budget for the coming year. [2016-01-10 19:25:30] I propose that the eventual plan shall be discussed in item 15, together with all remaining items for the organization. [2016-01-10 19:25:41] (the same for the budget) [2016-01-10 19:25:49] +1 [2016-01-10 19:26:39] +1 [2016-01-10 19:27:31] Item 11 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period. [2016-01-10 19:27:33] Or not? Yeah, here is better, apparently. [2016-01-10 19:27:44] Pretorian [2016-01-10 19:27:52] Pretorian [2016-01-10 19:27:54] Pretorian [2016-01-10 19:27:55] cologic [2016-01-10 19:28:04] Crise [2016-01-10 19:28:24] (say a person's name to NOMINATE them, then we'll vote on it) [2016-01-10 19:28:42] how many people may be part of the board? [2016-01-10 19:28:46] 3 [2016-01-10 19:29:00] eMTee [2016-01-10 19:29:13] let's add some competition. :) [2016-01-10 19:29:36] Pretorian, cologic, Crise and eMTee are nominated [2016-01-10 19:29:42] If you wish for Pretorian to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. [2016-01-10 19:29:51] +1 [2016-01-10 19:29:52] +1 [2016-01-10 19:29:53] +1 [2016-01-10 19:29:57] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:13] 4 votes for Pretorian to be part of the board. [2016-01-10 19:30:15] Pretorian is elected to the board. [2016-01-10 19:30:21] If you wish for cologic to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. [2016-01-10 19:30:22] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:25] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:28] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:29] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:33] 4 votes for cologic to be part of the board. [2016-01-10 19:30:37] cologic is elected to the board. [2016-01-10 19:30:48] If you wish for Crise to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. [2016-01-10 19:30:50] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:53] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:54] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:54] +1 [2016-01-10 19:30:59] 4 votes for Crise to be part of the board. [2016-01-10 19:31:05] Crise is elected to the board [2016-01-10 19:31:11] If you wish for eMTee to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. [2016-01-10 19:31:16] -1 [2016-01-10 19:31:16] no [2016-01-10 19:31:20] +1 [2016-01-10 19:31:33] -1 [2016-01-10 19:31:42] 1 vote for eMTee to be part of the board; 3 against; [2016-01-10 19:31:46] eMTee is not elected to the board. [2016-01-10 19:31:58] The board is now complete and consist of Pretorian, Crise and cologic. [2016-01-10 19:32:09] Item 13 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the stand-in board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period. [2016-01-10 19:32:11] poy [2016-01-10 19:32:17] (nominations only) [2016-01-10 19:32:17] poy [2016-01-10 19:32:30] poy [2016-01-10 19:32:37] iceman50 [2016-01-10 19:33:00] eMTee [2016-01-10 19:34:32] If you wish for poy to be elected in the supplementary board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. [2016-01-10 19:34:36] +1 [2016-01-10 19:34:40] +1 [2016-01-10 19:34:44] +1 [2016-01-10 19:34:53] +1 [2016-01-10 19:35:14] +1 [2016-01-10 19:39:53] Ok, let's continue [2016-01-10 19:40:03] f you wish for iceman to be elected in the supplementary board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. [2016-01-10 19:40:12] +1 [2016-01-10 19:40:12] +1 [2016-01-10 19:40:15] +1 [2016-01-10 19:40:16] (abstain) [2016-01-10 19:40:16] +1 [2016-01-10 19:40:32] 4 votes for iceman50 to be in the supplementary board. [2016-01-10 19:40:38] (wait is he even present, if not I change to abstain) [2016-01-10 19:40:59] aye [2016-01-10 19:41:09] iceman50: Do you accept your nomination? [2016-01-10 19:41:19] +1 [2016-01-10 19:41:43] If you wish for emtee to be elected in the supplementary board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. [2016-01-10 19:41:49] +1 [2016-01-10 19:41:52] -1 [2016-01-10 19:41:53] -1 [2016-01-10 19:41:58] +1 [2016-01-10 19:41:59] oh sorry hit the wrong key [2016-01-10 19:42:00] -1 [2016-01-10 19:42:01] -1 [2016-01-10 19:42:08] -1 [2016-01-10 19:42:18] 1 vote for eMTee to be in the supplementary board; 4 against. [2016-01-10 19:42:26] 1 vote for eMTee to be in the supplementary board; 5 against. [2016-01-10 19:42:27] iceman50 and poy are selected to the supplementary board, as is now complete. [2016-01-10 19:43:21] Item 15 in the by-laws: I will now go over each item in the proposals set in 5 in the order they were brought up. The person that brought it up has the floor. [2016-01-10 19:43:50] poy-1: Seeking legal advice from the EFF [2016-01-10 19:44:12] poy, please continue [2016-01-10 19:44:20] here are the things we agreed last year to ask the EFF about: I mostly had in mind the "list of things P2P devs cannot do" (such as helping a person download a movie). Can DCNF members do that without putting DCNF-supported projects in danger? Can DCNF *board* members do that without putting DCNF-supported projects in danger? Can the DCNF accept projects the managers of which we suspect might have infringed on that EFF recommendation list? [2016-01-10 19:44:58] it should be done this time so we can move on to more interesting issues. [2016-01-10 19:44:58] ordered: A) Can DCNF members do that without putting DCNF-supported projects in danger? B) Can DCNF *board* members do that without putting DCNF-supported projects in danger? C) Can the DCNF accept projects the managers of which we suspect might have infringed on that EFF recommendation list? [2016-01-10 19:45:14] (I shall just interject, if you wish to have an item to be an open discussion, please state as such.) [2016-01-10 19:45:30] feel free to discuss. [2016-01-10 19:46:06] A) In my opinion, yes, we, as an organzation cannot control what members do that might violate a law. [2016-01-10 19:46:24] However, we should strongly discourage them in doing so. [2016-01-10 19:46:49] I don't think we are in a legal problem here, for the org, but it is, I guess, a good thing to ask EFF. [2016-01-10 19:46:50] A DCNF member should subscribe to the EFF list, ask these questions and provide meaningful answers to other DCNF members. [2016-01-10 19:47:04] Yes, I agree. [2016-01-10 19:47:31] Generally speaking, one purpose of incoporated organizations and other legal persons is precisely to answer (1). However, I won't claim to understand the relevant laws well enough to have much confidence regarding how and whether they apply here. That's what the EFF is good at. [2016-01-10 19:47:44] s/incoporated/incorporated/ [2016-01-10 19:48:41] Beyond the EFF, I will see if the Swedish Pirate Party (regardless of what one's ideology is) may have an answer for these questions if they might be diverging from Swedish law. [2016-01-10 19:49:07] However, we should still ask EFF since we have services that reside in the US, and therefore have to follow US law. [2016-01-10 19:49:28] I think once we have EFF's answers, then I can ask the Swedish Pirate Party. [2016-01-10 19:49:43] The law that the organization itself is subject to is Swedish law, correct, but what of members whose projects may be licensed under a license based on US law, which will apply? [2016-01-10 19:49:50] And the server is in France, though I'm not sure which law must be followed (as it was bought by the DCNF, which is Swedish). [2016-01-10 19:50:14] Are any members projects based from the US? [2016-01-10 19:50:24] poy: My guess it is subject to European law anyway. [2016-01-10 19:50:36] (Pertaining to the scope of DC at least) [2016-01-10 19:50:40] no that I know of, but GPL is based on US law I believe [2016-01-10 19:50:54] The ADC and NMDC project are reside in the US, per sourceforge [2016-01-10 19:50:59] Ah ok [2016-01-10 19:51:22] The GPLv3 aims to internationalize and remove many assumptions embedded within the GPLv2 biased towards US law. However, historically, the GPL did grow out of US law, yes. [2016-01-10 19:51:22] As does sf.net/p/dcnetwork, although that project we might forego. [2016-01-10 19:51:27] Also does anyone object to a web redirect of http://diceplusplus.com to point to DC++'s site ? [2016-01-10 19:52:01] fine by me [2016-01-10 19:52:23] no problem iceman50. [2016-01-10 19:52:29] iceman50: I'm sorry, but that is a question that does not pertain to this particular discussion, please refrain from other topics than that is being discussed. [2016-01-10 19:52:39] (iceman50: I have no problem with it though) [2016-01-10 19:54:00] Feel free to continue discussing, but if poy wishes to vote on an action for the org, please state as such. [2016-01-10 19:54:18] So, the email to the EFF / other legal advisors should mention what DC & the DCNF are, then detail that we deal with entities located in different countries: members, projects, servers, the DCNF itself. We need to know how all of this interacts and which law applies. [2016-01-10 19:54:33] Yes, that sounds good. [2016-01-10 19:55:19] the question of the organizations liability status being the most important naturally [2016-01-10 19:55:20] I vote for the org to seek legal advice, as mention in the above discussion. [2016-01-10 19:55:30] as mentioned* [2016-01-10 19:55:35] +1 on poy's suggestion [2016-01-10 19:55:39] +1 [2016-01-10 19:55:45] +1 [2016-01-10 19:56:07] 4 votes for the DCNF to seek legal advice. [2016-01-10 19:56:17] I vote that the board will assign (or request) that a particular member will prepare and send this content [2016-01-10 19:56:46] Unless someone is willing to take it upon themselves to do this [2016-01-10 19:57:23] it's not just sending 1 content but being ready for answers and letting others know how the discussion goes. [2016-01-10 19:57:46] Agreed [2016-01-10 19:58:23] this is a strange vote. [2016-01-10 19:58:28] Heh [2016-01-10 19:58:46] I mean, we have to vote on who shall be appointed person or people [2016-01-10 19:59:02] well should we just nominate people and vote on that, then see if they accept as before... [2016-01-10 19:59:04] Or whether this should be deferred to the board [2016-01-10 19:59:42] I vote for Pretorian. [2016-01-10 19:59:51] I vote defer to the board [2016-01-10 20:00:04] +1 for deferring to the board [2016-01-10 20:00:05] I change my vote to defer to the board. [2016-01-10 20:00:20] +1 for deferring to the board. [2016-01-10 20:00:32] +1 on deferring [2016-01-10 20:00:38] 5 votes in favor of letting the board pick who will be sending legal advice requests and following up. [2016-01-10 20:01:04] poy: Do you feel your Item 1 has been adequately discussed etc? [2016-01-10 20:01:14] yes [2016-01-10 20:01:19] Ok, let's move on [2016-01-10 20:01:25] Pretorian-1: Scheduling of recurring meetings and timetables [2016-01-10 20:02:30] This is two-fold; A) I want to propose continual meetings (every other month is my initial suggestions) B) I want to propose timetables and "when we shall do them" [2016-01-10 20:03:21] For A, I want to suggest that there shall be a recurring meeting at every X (say, every 2 months), so that we can have follow-ups etc. [2016-01-10 20:03:32] This will mean that those who can attend, do, but it is not "required". [2016-01-10 20:03:52] For B, I want the board to set timetables for things we wish to do and attempt to follow up on them [2016-01-10 20:04:13] If the board has assigned a person to do X, the board should follow up with them and make sure they have completed their task etc [2016-01-10 20:04:15] Please discuss [2016-01-10 20:04:34] I vote for a meeting once a month. [2016-01-10 20:04:56] poy: Is that a realistic thing, though? [2016-01-10 20:05:11] Once a month is, I'd admit, better, but is it realistic? [2016-01-10 20:05:37] Are we more likely to have attendees during monthy vs (e.g.) bi-monthly? [2016-01-10 20:05:40] well, at least it will ensure some people who are away for too long (eg myself) are around once a month... [2016-01-10 20:05:58] I have no problem with once a month if others agree. [2016-01-10 20:06:03] I second on both counts, the major issue with last year in regards to getting things done is likely that the goals were broad and lacked in detail and were never followed up on in any way [2016-01-10 20:06:15] Exactly, Crise. [2016-01-10 20:06:45] to palliate missing members, we could send a summary of the meeting to the list / forum / etc. [2016-01-10 20:07:20] How about this; We schedule a 11 meetings (-1 for org meetings) during the year, of which 5/6 are "required" for the *board* to attend. [2016-01-10 20:07:36] define "required". [2016-01-10 20:08:01] the board has to be present for any decisions no, so that seems entirely reasonable [2016-01-10 20:08:15] They need to coordinate beforehand and at least one person from the board should attend. [2016-01-10 20:08:32] fine by me. [2016-01-10 20:08:41] If all can't make the date, then they need to change the date (close in time to that meeting) [2016-01-10 20:09:05] Or at least one appointee (e.g. if poy is selected) that will "hold the meeting" if he can. [2016-01-10 20:09:16] (Where the board will send poy their notes) [2016-01-10 20:09:28] So poy would just state everything the board has said [2016-01-10 20:09:34] (poy, just using you as an example) [2016-01-10 20:09:42] Could be anyone. [2016-01-10 20:09:54] Purely for information purposes, they can't do voting etc. [2016-01-10 20:10:48] And the meetings doesn't have to be this formal, they can just be a few line items [2016-01-10 20:11:19] Vote? [2016-01-10 20:11:35] yes [2016-01-10 20:11:36] 11 meetings a year, once a month, 6 meetings require the board to attend [2016-01-10 20:11:47] +1 [2016-01-10 20:11:49] +1 [2016-01-10 20:11:53] +1 [2016-01-10 20:11:53] (the 6 meetings every other month spread apart) [2016-01-10 20:11:54] +1 [2016-01-10 20:12:28] 5 votes for 11 meetings a year, once a month; including 6 required to be attended by the board. [2016-01-10 20:13:04] I'm comfortable with item Pretorian-1, unless someone has anything else to add, I'll continue [2016-01-10 20:13:08] to help with both points, I think we should use some calendar service... anyone has ideas? [2016-01-10 20:13:28] poy: How about Launchpad? [2016-01-10 20:13:32] I know Google Calendar can do the job. [2016-01-10 20:13:51] Ideally, the calendar should be open for everyone, not just the board [2016-01-10 20:13:51] can we run Zhen? [2016-01-10 20:13:58] or the one Jeff Atwood has built... [2016-01-10 20:14:03] Pretorian: I believe that platform (lp) is more or less dead [2016-01-10 20:14:14] or well google is fine with me (free and just works) [2016-01-10 20:14:16] (or, well, the calendar should be read-only for members, but writable for the board) [2016-01-10 20:14:37] Can Google calendar be read by everyone? [2016-01-10 20:15:12] https://support.google.com/calendar/answer/37083?hl=en [2016-01-10 20:15:29] one can customize various settings in Google Calendar, yeah. [2016-01-10 20:15:33] heh, found the same link as iceman50. [2016-01-10 20:15:40] Let's go with Google calendar? [2016-01-10 20:15:56] seconded [2016-01-10 20:16:04] I'd like to test it all first [2016-01-10 20:16:14] before comitting, just in-case of any snags [2016-01-10 20:16:31] www.dcbase.org/meetings can also signify the monthly meetings but the calendar can signify much greater detail [2016-01-10 20:16:49] can the calendar be embedded to said page? [2016-01-10 20:16:51] I believe the public calendar could also be embedded on that site as well [2016-01-10 20:17:06] That'd be great [2016-01-10 20:17:46] I vote for Google Calendar unless a better alternative is brought to the board [2016-01-10 20:18:23] +1 [2016-01-10 20:18:26] finally found what I was looking for - by Joel Spolsky, the guy behind Stack Overflow (with Jeff Atwood): [2016-01-10 20:18:37] but never tried it. [2016-01-10 20:18:47] +1 for Google Calendar. [2016-01-10 20:19:02] +1 for google calendar [2016-01-10 20:19:05] +1 for Google Calender barring a better alternative. [2016-01-10 20:19:14] actually I'd like to change my +1 to +1 pending any testing and/or trial period [2016-01-10 20:19:25] I second iceman50. [2016-01-10 20:19:42] I'll add that caveat to my vote as well. [2016-01-10 20:19:49] likewise [2016-01-10 20:19:54] 5 votes for trying out Google Calendar and staying open to alternatives. [2016-01-10 20:19:57] I feel my item(s) have been adequately discussed. [2016-01-10 20:19:59] Let's move on [2016-01-10 20:20:05] Crise-1: The state of the website and related organization services, problems and solutions [2016-01-10 20:20:25] Crise: You have the floor [2016-01-10 20:21:46] Well, I believe the problems bit has come up through the course of this meeting as well... the servers biggest issue is 0 automation maintenance, which means any services targetting general public are hard to execute in practice and doing so securely is another point of contention [2016-01-10 20:23:27] the current setup works for single and simple site, as is with the current main organization page, but beyond that, especially if the number of people working on it is to change across the years it will become complicated [2016-01-10 20:23:49] feel free to discuss by the way... [2016-01-10 20:23:51] Perhaps a good time to discuss 'FO' and the possible use for meetings [2016-01-10 20:24:05] In events where there are disruptions [2016-01-10 20:24:12] FO? [2016-01-10 20:24:22] FailOver [2016-01-10 20:24:41] http://adc.sourceforge.net/ADC-EXT.html#_fo_failover_hub_addresses [2016-01-10 20:24:58] ah beat me to it! [2016-01-10 20:25:03] I think it's not the right time to discuss protocol details, but yeah, we should have fallbacks for our monthly meetings. [2016-01-10 20:25:19] Crise: I agree with you, but the alternative would be to NOT have those types of services. [2016-01-10 20:25:38] I believe we need some kind of emergency process that is not reliant on a public DC hub, since those don't tend to be very resistent to attacks [2016-01-10 20:25:44] I believe, as we discussed last year, that the organization should provide a best-effort service etc. [2016-01-10 20:25:59] I agree on that point pretorian [2016-01-10 20:26:15] What we could do is spread out the servers etc. [2016-01-10 20:26:53] I actually do have a proposition, but first the second glaring issue with the current setup, no esily accessible backups, or am I mistaken? [2016-01-10 20:27:06] then there is legal action, if the source of the attacks can be determined. [2016-01-10 20:27:19] You'd be partially correct with backups, I have been copying the htdocs at least.. [2016-01-10 20:27:42] There should definitely be some multi-backups in place, I'd agree. [2016-01-10 20:27:46] I'm not sure how much a DC hub can be protected from even medium-scale DDoSes by, e.g., CloudFlare-like services. It's at least more intrinsically vulnerable than a website which can be cached. [2016-01-10 20:27:55] Can we set up an automation of backups to send to the board for instance? [2016-01-10 20:28:08] What about Linode (Barring their recent DDoS) [2016-01-10 20:28:43] The proposition I have for the website as it is now, ie. the static portions (html) of it is as follows: Set up a VCS (such as git or mercurial) and use it as SFTP/ssh replacement [2016-01-10 20:29:15] it has the benefits of being a self contained backup and retaining old versions [2016-01-10 20:29:38] If it is possible to set things up like that, then I'd support it [2016-01-10 20:29:43] and access control would be mostly separate from server [2016-01-10 20:30:27] ie. server access would only be needed to push changes live out of sequence as post commit actions can be setup depending on the service provider [2016-01-10 20:30:34] put as much as possible of the server content in a repo; sounds good to me. [2016-01-10 20:30:46] *If* we can do this, +1 definitely [2016-01-10 20:31:00] Various people have set up and described how to set up the sort of system which Crise describes, so it's definitely technically possible. [2016-01-10 20:31:27] e.g., http://etckeeper.branchable.com/ is one variation on the idea. [2016-01-10 20:31:52] we can also opt to use an existing repository host, such as github, I am not listing sourceforge here for obvious reasons, for easy maintenance [2016-01-10 20:32:21] Some files will contain passwords etc, so I don't want to use an external host [2016-01-10 20:32:30] The repository should be "secret". [2016-01-10 20:32:36] personally I am partial to gitlab https://about.gitlab.com/ [2016-01-10 20:32:40] Caveat: git and mercurial both have issues with large, monolithic, binary files their diffing algorithms can't get traction on. I suspect that for dcbase.org purposes, all files will be small enough this won't be an issue. [2016-01-10 20:33:04] it can be either remotely or locally hosted and the remotely hosted repos can be private as well [2016-01-10 20:33:08] One would have to become wary of, e.g., uploading a large video though. [2016-01-10 20:33:34] I believe large files should be distributed through eg. youtube in case of videos [2016-01-10 20:34:16] Yes, and I don't foresee any non-audio/video files having these issues, though I might be missing certain use cases. [2016-01-10 20:35:04] Where the main repository is hosted shouldn't be a problem, though, right? If it's git. [2016-01-10 20:35:29] So I'd just say let's store it on the server unless we can find a more compelling reason to put it externally [2016-01-10 20:35:40] yes as long as the host doesn't make its contents public like f.ex. github free plan always does [2016-01-10 20:36:35] the compelling reason to have it extrenal is the fact that the server is subject to attacks, but I doubt any DC attackers have the balls to attack a bigger organization [2016-01-10 20:36:52] plus less maintenance cost [2016-01-10 20:37:01] in terms of man hours [2016-01-10 20:37:27] the other solution (which I usually see in practice) is to have a designated sys admin person who has sole access to the server; others wishing to access it may request temporary access or better, document what they wish the sys admin to do. [2016-01-10 20:37:48] Let's start with local server (OVH), if anyone sees a good/cheap service, then the board can move the service(s) to that. [2016-01-10 20:37:55] Can CloudFlare protect against an HTTP/HTTPS-based VCS access method? [2016-01-10 20:38:09] I doubt it [2016-01-10 20:38:35] because it relies on portions of HTTP other than get and post [2016-01-10 20:39:02] when is the renewal time for the OVH server? [2016-01-10 20:39:17] October or something like that [2016-01-10 20:39:30] a bit far... [2016-01-10 20:40:36] we probably should avoid being completely reliant on one single server, but at the same time investing anything more is also not wise at this point [2016-01-10 20:42:06] so how shall we close this topic? Vote? [2016-01-10 20:42:23] clearly we won't find the best solutions on the spot. can we plan to have a better look at available tools / etc for the next month? [2016-01-10 20:42:29] I'd say we should vote on three things A) Shall we move static pages (such as HTML), where possible to a source control repository (a la Git)? B) Shall we prefer to place the repository at the current server. If an external server is found to be compelling, the board can/should move to it. B) Shall we prefer to place the repository at the external. If that's too much work etc, the board can/should move it to the current server [2016-01-10 20:42:49] Err, B and C, respectively, which are mutually exclusive, of course [2016-01-10 20:43:01] for A what about syncing a shared folddr on dropbox or box? [2016-01-10 20:43:25] folder* [2016-01-10 20:43:28] interesting iceman50... [2016-01-10 20:44:07] of course this would be on top of any primary solution e.g VCS [2016-01-10 20:44:35] but an easy redundant choice [2016-01-10 20:44:35] Git + dropbox? [2016-01-10 20:44:43] I have no experience with that personally so I defer to everyone else on that, but we should be vary of potential conflicts [2016-01-10 20:44:56] ie. the server should not have to commit stuff to VCS ideally [2016-01-10 20:45:10] only pull [2016-01-10 20:45:14] Can we set dropbox to be readonly? [2016-01-10 20:45:16] I'm not sure Dropbox has open-source access methods. [2016-01-10 20:45:35] If we can set dropbox to be readonly, we can just use it as a backup measure. [2016-01-10 20:45:57] we could test it but i propose we have a proper schematic for backups with a file stored containing all checksums / hashes of files to be backed up [2016-01-10 20:46:08] agreed, iceman50 [2016-01-10 20:46:11] for legal purposes [2016-01-10 20:46:22] Ah, if this is merely a backup measure, it's less important if only closed-source methods can access it. [2016-01-10 20:46:26] git bundles are good for that no? [2016-01-10 20:46:50] ie. store a git bundle and a checksum in dropbox, or would it be an issue with space [2016-01-10 20:46:51] yes but i was speaking in regards to dropbox relzted syncs [2016-01-10 20:47:03] fair enough [2016-01-10 20:47:09] related* [2016-01-10 20:47:14] Sounds good, IMO [2016-01-10 20:47:20] if we're about using an external service, why not just a repository service then? [2016-01-10 20:47:47] no reason to trust dropbox more than github... [2016-01-10 20:48:05] Can we hide things in Github? [2016-01-10 20:48:10] well lets move one item at a time, I am personally partial to external service provider, for reasons stated earlier [2016-01-10 20:48:19] we can if we pay [2016-01-10 20:48:30] https://about.gitlab.com/ this can do it for free [2016-01-10 20:48:41] and we could opt to host it locally if we want [2016-01-10 20:49:15] I have used it for some time as SaaS solution and it works okay [2016-01-10 20:49:36] Crise: It's your point, can you summarize what you want to vote on/what actions shall be taken. [2016-01-10 20:50:01] (kind of feels like we're discussing too much detail) [2016-01-10 20:50:29] (but I'm fine with that if people really want to discuss that level of detail.) [2016-01-10 20:50:56] I believe as you presented A) is a given, and B) whether an external or locally hosted solution is to be used (we should assume that external solution has to be able to hide sensitive info) [2016-01-10 20:51:15] Ok, let's vote on A [2016-01-10 20:51:30] +1 for A [2016-01-10 20:51:33] (just so we are clear) [2016-01-10 20:51:36] +1 for A [2016-01-10 20:51:38] +1 [2016-01-10 20:51:44] +1 for A [2016-01-10 20:51:57] +1 for A [2016-01-10 20:52:12] 5 votes for moving static content hosted by the DCNF to version controlled repositories. [2016-01-10 20:52:44] no opinion on B [2016-01-10 20:53:09] Let's vote on B, vote local vs external preferred solution [2016-01-10 20:53:24] abstain [2016-01-10 20:53:25] (assuming of course that the external can hide info etc) [2016-01-10 20:53:31] abstain [2016-01-10 20:53:31] +1 for external, rationale above [2016-01-10 20:54:23] B seems tautologically true, but that's the main issue with it. It seems almost default: try local, because that's what the status quo is, and "if an external server is found to be compelling", etc. [2016-01-10 20:54:28] Given A, I don't see how B has much content. [2016-01-10 20:55:00] cologic: It is whether we should even bother to see an external host or not, in the initial case, I guess [2016-01-10 20:55:24] If external, then we shouldn't even consider trying the local first. [2016-01-10 20:55:28] The justification with B is to not have the overhead of maintenance of the repository on us [2016-01-10 20:56:02] ie. updating and configuring git, keeping said configuration backed up [2016-01-10 20:57:13] I'll change my vote to external, simply to get things moving. :P [2016-01-10 20:57:14] good argument. but it really depends on what we include in these repos. we could exclude some sentive files from repos and expect them to be on a server at run time... [2016-01-10 20:57:28] Ah. Reasonable enough. I still don't feel strongly either way about it, I suppose. External repositories would add some administration of whatever coupling/synchronizing method's used, unless the whole website moves to said external server. [2016-01-10 20:58:00] not anymore than locally hosted git [2016-01-10 20:58:12] That's probably true, yes. [2016-01-10 20:58:21] because the repo has to still be pulled by the server to the htdocs or relevant location [2016-01-10 20:59:28] so... [2016-01-10 20:59:32] cologic: Vote [2016-01-10 21:00:05] (If he doesn't, poy, make a count.) [2016-01-10 21:00:17] im going to side with crise [2016-01-10 21:00:26] (we could probably discuss this item for an entire day or so) [2016-01-10 21:00:43] +1 on B [2016-01-10 21:00:52] I agee the particulars have to be further discussed [2016-01-10 21:00:52] poy: counter please :) [2016-01-10 21:01:17] sorry went away... [2016-01-10 21:01:44] 4 votes for B, with details remaining to be cleared out. [2016-01-10 21:01:48] (git vs mercurial, github vs something else if we go external etc.) [2016-01-10 21:01:51] Good, let's continue [2016-01-10 21:01:54] Pretorian-2: Review of last year's items and the organization's management of them [2016-01-10 21:02:18] Here I thought I'd go through the items we had last year, where we had some type of follow up or where we said we should do X. [2016-01-10 21:02:29] At any point, feel free to discuss [2016-01-10 21:02:37] I'll number them for ease of discussion [2016-01-10 21:03:17] 1) Content on the DCNF website Here I've attempted to add content to dcbase.org, such as , , [2016-01-10 21:03:30] Oh, and [2016-01-10 21:04:00] It was very recently I did this (this week), so I'm unsure if everyone has seen them. [2016-01-10 21:04:00] nice! [2016-01-10 21:04:28] I believe it would benefit to link some of them more visibly on the site itself, not sure if all of them are accessible through other pages on the site [2016-01-10 21:04:50] also, is faq3 relevant or not? [2016-01-10 21:05:12] Yeah, that was something I was unsure of, because if I were to add more links in the top bar, it will change the placement/size of the text "Direct Connect network foundation" [2016-01-10 21:05:18] faq3 can be removed entirely [2016-01-10 21:06:11] So I think we can certainly discuss the _structure_ of the website (how to access the information), but I hope the current _information_ is what people would indeed like to see. [2016-01-10 21:06:34] I can take adjusting the top navigation as something I will do, dropdowns should be possible with some changes [2016-01-10 21:06:58] as for the content, those are good additions [2016-01-10 21:07:07] So, this is more of a note to others to check them out and to propose changes in information. I believe structure is something that can be done "without much discussion". [2016-01-10 21:07:17] E.g., the inclusion of court cases can be contested. [2016-01-10 21:07:33] (end of Resources/) [2016-01-10 21:08:09] Moving on... [2016-01-10 21:08:49] what is the state of this: https://www.dcbase.org/hub/history.txt [2016-01-10 21:08:52] 2) Activities of the DCNF (blog, "social media" presence...) We have had little activity on Youtube, but the blog has been updated sporadically [2016-01-10 21:09:07] Crise: My idea with that is that this will be a copy of the chat in Public [2016-01-10 21:09:24] Basically +history available via HTTP [2016-01-10 21:09:42] So you don't have to login to the hub to see previous discussions. [2016-01-10 21:09:54] I have code to generate such a file (to be included in the history.lua file). [2016-01-10 21:10:16] It is empty for now, since poy has yet to give my the account information for devhub... [2016-01-10 21:10:22] ok, thanks, bear in mind that the file has to rotate to avoid mammoths [2016-01-10 21:10:33] Only stores 5000 lines [2016-01-10 21:10:38] ok [2016-01-10 21:10:40] Or, that was the intention [2016-01-10 21:11:23] Re 2), it is my intention to pick up writing/recording videos on other software this year, for Youtube [2016-01-10 21:11:54] E.g., i know that some software, such as AirDC++ is used by a lot of people. There should of course also be videos for those programs [2016-01-10 21:12:17] If you need help with that I have the ability to do screencasts as well [2016-01-10 21:13:02] It is my intention to record videos silently and then dub the videos, so we can get Swedish/Finnish etc. [2016-01-10 21:13:35] seems like a good plan [2016-01-10 21:14:32] 3) Acceptance of supported projects (type (programs, protocols...), workflow...) The board has not completed a struture of what services will be allowed (source control etc), so little has happened here. Once the item with external hosting of static pages is done, then we can re-evaluate what services we can more easily manage [2016-01-10 21:15:04] 4) Separation between the foundation and supported projects (legal, in particular) Already discussed, no action has currently been taken [2016-01-10 21:15:30] 5) Hosting hubs/repositories/websites fall under 3) [2016-01-10 21:17:25] 6) Ways to find new members Little has been done to recruit people, I have submitted posts in /r/sweden and /r/technology, but the former post garned comments just focusing on illegal file sharing and the latter didn't even show my link (moderated and deleted or something akin to it). [2016-01-10 21:17:55] We have not attempted to address the rest (such as t-shirts or equivalent). [2016-01-10 21:18:30] 7) Involvement of the DCNF in DC protocols ADC and NMDC has been partially moved, but not fully. This is still a work-in-progress [2016-01-10 21:19:02] I am unsure at this time if I/we have sent a mail to arne regarding taking over the official copyright of ADC [2016-01-10 21:19:25] 8) Buying the services of developers This has not been done at all, at this point [2016-01-10 21:20:28] 9) Mobile/web-based DC-related programs I have compiled a brief introduction etc to be presented to a university in Sweden. I will likely send this to my old examiner, but the issue is the physical location of the thesis. [2016-01-10 21:20:50] 10) Contacting well-known tech bloggers This has not been done at all, at this point [2016-01-10 21:21:05] 11) DC and businesses This has not been done at all, at this point. [2016-01-10 21:21:24] For 11, poy, IIRC, you have used DC in your company as a communication device? [2016-01-10 21:21:38] It would be good to have a write-up of what you have done/not done etc. [2016-01-10 21:22:18] (I hope everyone's still here. :P) [2016-01-10 21:22:29] (I am, at least. :p ) [2016-01-10 21:22:35] 12) Copyright management for DC Plugins This is partially done, work in progress [2016-01-10 21:23:00] unfortunately we haven't used DC much since that last time when the hype was up... I'll try to re-ignite. :) [2016-01-10 21:23:04] 13) Old domains This is not done, but things like diceplusplus.com may be purchased, perhaps? [2016-01-10 21:23:56] By the way, I have yet to transfer dcbase.org (the domain) from myself to the org. For some reason, last I tried, it wouldn't let me transfer to the same address. I will retry this venture. [2016-01-10 21:24:07] Re 12: if you are going to get in touch with Arne about the ADC copyright, there is a discussion to be had about the license and copyright of the PluginDefs.h file as part of the plugin API [2016-01-10 21:24:15] It is also why the domain is not part of the purchase list. [2016-01-10 21:24:52] Ok, so the board shall contact arne about license/copyright for the publically accessible API. [2016-01-10 21:25:18] Those were the items from the last meeting. [2016-01-10 21:25:51] they look fine. no objection from me. [2016-01-10 21:26:15] I will let 3 minutes pass, so people can object/comment, otherwise I will move on from item 15 of the bylaws to item 16 [2016-01-10 21:26:27] No objections here. [2016-01-10 21:26:35] item 16 is "additional items" anyway, so it's pretty much an open floor [2016-01-10 21:26:40] I have thought of 2 more items I would like to discuss. [2016-01-10 21:26:45] great... [2016-01-10 21:27:06] I officially move from item 15 to item 16 [2016-01-10 21:27:16] Poy, you may continue with item 1 you have. [2016-01-10 21:27:31] poy-2: Use a public service for meetings, since the public dcdev hub is not reliable. [2016-01-10 21:27:39] poy-3: Better announce donations. [2016-01-10 21:28:16] on poy-2, I propose freenode (a public IRC server group). I use it a lot and it's been reliable. [2016-01-10 21:28:28] discuss away.. [2016-01-10 21:28:51] I find it quite strange, though, to have a DC discussion on a different network. [2016-01-10 21:29:02] Perhaps as a backup, that'd be fine, though. [2016-01-10 21:29:07] so for poy-2: I believe skype and/or teamspeak and other alternatives have been brought up at some point as well [2016-01-10 21:29:23] There's an irony in poy-2, at least, but perhaps a recognition of the so-far 100% record of meetings being attacked. [2016-01-10 21:29:28] Yes, Skype/teamspeak is something i'd also definitely would like to see. [2016-01-10 21:29:56] on principal though I agree with pretorian we should aim to have the meeting at least accessible through DC [2016-01-10 21:29:57] I'm not sure people can join as they like into skype / teamspeak discussions? [2016-01-10 21:30:14] does ADC have IRC link bots or whatever they are called? [2016-01-10 21:30:48] some did exist but I have never tried them... [2016-01-10 21:30:51] so we could hold the meeting undisturbed but have it public on DC at the same time [2016-01-10 21:31:06] I'll state that I have a preference, in general, for tools which aren't inaccessible without closed-source software -- I'm fine with IRC, such as Freenode, I don't know enough about Teamspeak to comment, and I tend to be wary of Skype, while recognizing its utility. [2016-01-10 21:31:38] cologic: I think the point is a voice/communication application. [2016-01-10 21:31:43] (Mumble for instance) [2016-01-10 21:31:56] Ah, yes, no objection to that, as such. [2016-01-10 21:32:09] We should prefer the hub, and then if that fails, we can use public IRC-places or the like. [2016-01-10 21:32:15] for the record: I think skype is basically shit, pardon my french, but the point is having the option of voice + chat [2016-01-10 21:32:36] Skype has the plus side of being easily accessible through a phone. [2016-01-10 21:32:44] it's just that this time we have fell back to a private place, and I would like to avoid that in the future. [2016-01-10 21:33:02] I can agree with poy on that [2016-01-10 21:33:15] DC hub > (other DC hub) > DC to IRC > IRC [2016-01-10 21:33:21] but any public self hosted "meeting solution" will be likely subject to attacks [2016-01-10 21:33:53] freenode is quite big so they should be able to handle these attacks. [2016-01-10 21:34:12] also, if there is voice discussion, being able to record said discussion is point to keep in mind for archival purposes [2016-01-10 21:34:43] Indeed, voice recording is key [2016-01-10 21:35:40] It may be fine to say that the _meetings_ shall be acessible through DC/IRC. general discussion places should be DC centric. [2016-01-10 21:36:21] do the bylaws need to be ammended in regards to a backup meeting protocol and how involved of a process would that be? [2016-01-10 21:36:33] Crise: No need for that. [2016-01-10 21:36:50] I'm dubious voice chat would be cleaner or more productive. Also, unfriendly to searches. [2016-01-10 21:38:21] I believe the primary method of discussion should be text, but I am not entirely ready to dismiss voice as an option, if managed correctly you can cover things faster while speaking, dependant on your typing speed ofc [2016-01-10 21:39:46] ok so: A) better fallback plans (public DC hubs > public IRC hubs); B) voice chat possibility. [2016-01-10 21:40:02] I agree on both. [2016-01-10 21:40:11] Agree with poy on both [2016-01-10 21:40:18] re voice: transcribing it later is a possibility but more work, also agree on both [2016-01-10 21:40:33] 3 people agree on these items. [2016-01-10 21:40:48] Ok, let's move on to poy-3 [2016-01-10 21:41:12] +1 on both [2016-01-10 21:41:22] on poy-3, given we quite regularly receive donations, I would like some way of announcing these donations / publicly thanking donators. [2016-01-10 21:41:31] thoughts? [2016-01-10 21:41:43] when it comes to donation, the person making the donation should have the option to remain anonymous, but also ideally have his/her contribution acknowledged in some visible way [2016-01-10 21:41:48] Agreed, I did at one point announce it in the blog [2016-01-10 21:42:02] it is promised in the dc++ installer addy [2016-01-10 21:42:02] Perhaps a new page at the site? [2016-01-10 21:42:23] Perhaps we can amend the DC++ installer and/or version.xml? [2016-01-10 21:42:38] For example, a more regular version of https://dcpp.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/donations-for-dcnf-april-2015/ which Pretorian alluded to? [2016-01-10 21:42:49] Or, not visible enough perhaps. [2016-01-10 21:42:49] or a google doc as I was already recommended [2016-01-10 21:43:07] along with the full accounting info [2016-01-10 21:43:12] that post was great, yeah. [2016-01-10 21:43:17] a page on the site should be easy enough to maintain especially once the changes discussed ealier go through [2016-01-10 21:43:48] I think a page on the site would be enough + eMTee's mentioned accounting info [2016-01-10 21:44:01] In addiiton to more frequent blog posts... [2016-01-10 21:44:29] Can we perhaps also include these donations to the changelog? [2016-01-10 21:44:32] (for e.g. DC++) [2016-01-10 21:44:38] and/or version.xml [2016-01-10 21:44:42] monthly blog posts about donations might be "spammy" and being disregarded by readers - I'd go with the google sheet & a website page. [2016-01-10 21:44:52] and an annual blog post. [2016-01-10 21:45:08] agree with poy, re blog [2016-01-10 21:45:17] Any notice in version.xml/changelog would change the visibility of people's donations, and their willingness to donate. [2016-01-10 21:45:23] donations for DC++ != donations for DCNF [2016-01-10 21:45:41] eMTee: Ah, true [2016-01-10 21:45:45] eMTee: true [2016-01-10 21:45:55] I don't think that was changed iirc it was up to arne to agree to change to DCNF but he hasn't responded [2016-01-10 21:46:11] So something more directly at dcbase.org? [2016-01-10 21:46:17] The organization has NOT received any "DC++ donations", mind you (atleast none explicit as such as far as I can remember). [2016-01-10 21:46:48] DC++ donation possibility is in the program [2016-01-10 21:47:03] DCNF donation addy in in the installer (of DC++) [2016-01-10 21:47:06] Yes, but I don't know if we see the referral code. [2016-01-10 21:47:21] and on the DC++ home page, too [2016-01-10 21:47:30] I.e., I'm not sure if we can distinguish from a DC++ vs DCNF donation. [2016-01-10 21:47:44] Unless people write specifically DC++ [2016-01-10 21:48:05] DC++ donation goes to arnetheduck@gmail.com since its inception [2016-01-10 21:48:09] Pretorian: as we are talking about donations, is the organisation sustaining itself financially (ie. we should either find a way to encourage donations to the point that the current running costs get covered or look at other avenues) [2016-01-10 21:48:54] The DC++ installer addy does not advertise for donations to DC++, rather to DCNF [2016-01-10 21:48:57] Crise: For the previous year, yes, with the current balance + upcoming member fees, we should cover this year as well. [2016-01-10 21:49:37] is all about DCNF. [2016-01-10 21:51:09] What we could do is set up "dcnf-dcpp@dcbase.org" at PayPal and change DC++ donations to that account. That account would then transfer over to the main DCNF account. [2016-01-10 21:51:17] poy: does the dcpp help link use that page? [2016-01-10 21:51:28] That way we can see which donations are purely DCNF and which are DC++ ones. [2016-01-10 21:51:28] yes Crise, just tried it. [2016-01-10 21:51:52] no one is going to care about that Pretorian. [2016-01-10 21:51:56] Pretorian: seconded, at least would make for an interesting statistic if nothing else [2016-01-10 21:52:13] ah, I see, something automatic... [2016-01-10 21:52:41] Because, again, we cannot distinguish from DC++ vs DCNF donations unless people specifically write a description, so we cannot include say anywhere anything about DC++ donations. [2016-01-10 21:53:33] But it's an administration overhead in doing so, of course. [2016-01-10 21:53:43] (one dc++ account and one dcnf account) [2016-01-10 21:53:52] so: A) shared sheet (eg via google docs); B) page on the DCNF website; C) Integration into DC++ (once DC++ / DCNF donations can be distinguished); D) blog post from time to time (not too often) to keep thanking donators. [2016-01-10 21:54:18] A) -1 B) +1 C) +1 D) +1 [2016-01-10 21:54:34] +1 on all 4 from me. [2016-01-10 21:54:45] (i don't see an advantage of A if B exists) [2016-01-10 21:55:00] a) -1, b) +1, c) abstain d) +1 [2016-01-10 21:55:05] Just adds additional files/places to manage [2016-01-10 21:55:12] A or B but I think A is editable more easily [2016-01-10 21:55:38] #A is easier to export / build stats from. [2016-01-10 21:55:59] +1 on B, D. Abstain on A, since it seems more suited to internal record-keeping rather than public display. Abstain on C because of the difficulty in distinguishing between DC++ and DCNF, combined with a desire to at least in principle, conceptually separate the two. [2016-01-10 21:55:59] Pretorian: we should have the option for anonymous donations, so perhaps you want to keep private records of all donations for the financial report on these annual meetings [2016-01-10 21:56:06] or combination of A & B as static page on the website linking or embedding the google doc [2016-01-10 21:56:27] ok let's count... :D [2016-01-10 21:57:21] poy: You're the vote counter :P [2016-01-10 21:58:00] vote count: A) 0; B) 5; C) 2; D) 4. [2016-01-10 21:58:00] and give him some time :P mr. chairman [2016-01-10 21:58:11] that was hard... [2016-01-10 21:58:27] Ok :) [2016-01-10 21:58:41] That was the last item that has been previously brought up. [2016-01-10 21:58:53] Does anyone have additional items? [2016-01-10 21:59:17] where do we see the actual memberlist of the org? [2016-01-10 21:59:36] good point... [2016-01-10 21:59:40] I don't think a public list is accessible [2016-01-10 21:59:54] The memberlist has been kept private at Google docs, I am unsure of publicizing a list. [2016-01-10 22:00:17] on that note here is something to look into: ie. can we augment the formus to support subscriptions of some kind to facilitate this [2016-01-10 22:00:29] Crise mentioned previously a potential privacy notice regarding public list. [2016-01-10 22:00:33] at least publish the board list? [2016-01-10 22:01:04] The board list is not necessarily hidden, but not public, but that can surely be made (more) public, yes. [2016-01-10 22:01:05] that is a matter of public record as part of meeting notes, but having it on the website would be trivial addition I believe [2016-01-10 22:01:27] Indeed [2016-01-10 22:02:13] I have no particular problem with having a public list, it is more that the members might want that. [2016-01-10 22:02:21] if we want to publicise some information, a list of board members + total member count is what I would opt for [2016-01-10 22:02:28] However, I think the list amount should be public. [2016-01-10 22:02:31] Yep [2016-01-10 22:02:51] Only the board should have access to the full member list. [2016-01-10 22:03:04] Since they include e-mails. [2016-01-10 22:03:16] the list on sure is appealing. :) [2016-01-10 22:03:29] you'll note there are only directors; not the whole member list. [2016-01-10 22:03:51] poy: I don't think having it's a good idea to have the C++ people on DCNF's about page. :P [2016-01-10 22:04:02] -having [2016-01-10 22:04:42] the structure of that page is nice though [2016-01-10 22:04:53] So, vote on making the board public accssible information as well as member count? [2016-01-10 22:05:03] But not the full member list [2016-01-10 22:05:23] I believe that is best compromise [2016-01-10 22:05:50] So, +1, basically [2016-01-10 22:05:57] +1 for board list + member count. [2016-01-10 22:06:25] 3 votes for board list + member count. [2016-01-10 22:06:31] +1 for board list + member countg [2016-01-10 22:06:37] 4 votes for board list + member count. [2016-01-10 22:06:40] s/countg/count/ [2016-01-10 22:06:48] Ok, good. [2016-01-10 22:06:52] Any additional items? [2016-01-10 22:07:41] I'll wait a few minutes so people can think of additional things they want to address. [2016-01-10 22:07:50] What is the status of DC++ blog related to DCFN? [2016-01-10 22:08:11] I mean blog posts are being discussed, but I believe officially it is still DC++ blog [2016-01-10 22:08:40] Originally, it wasn't supposed to be a "DC++ blog", it kind of just became that since I was primarily working on DC++... [2016-01-10 22:08:54] I'd have no problem re-branding it. [2016-01-10 22:09:11] Although, switching the URL is a problem. [2016-01-10 22:09:20] I try to keep my posts there at least consistent with its being a DC++ blog for the moment, even if they're not usually about DC++ too specifically. [2016-01-10 22:09:33] if we treat it as a publishing medium for the org, something should reflect that... also, I would add a section on how to get posts onto the blog somewhere, I don't think there is much public info on that [2016-01-10 22:09:43] I have no problem at all just treating it as a publishing medium for DC. [2016-01-10 22:10:05] Cryptography, protocol concerns, and similar issues impinge upon DC++ fairly directly, even if the resulting code changes in DC++ are usually minor to nonexistent. [2016-01-10 22:10:12] Well, there is . [2016-01-10 22:10:38] I have been pretty open in the past with giving people access to post. [2016-01-10 22:10:57] But yeah, Crise, you're right, that it's not very obvious. [2016-01-10 22:11:00] that blog is also quite popular I believe - a new one would likely not be read much. [2016-01-10 22:11:27] if the suggestion box is to be used, it should be cleared of off-topic discussion every so often [2016-01-10 22:12:24] Goes from 20 views on Monday (increasing) to around 50/60 on Sunday. [2016-01-10 22:12:37] (cyclically every week) [2016-01-10 22:13:28] So we should attempt to increase the potential that non-DC++ content and authors make it to the blog. [2016-01-10 22:14:02] Either by improving general information on how to get things posted or moving some "branding" from DC++ specific to generic DC content [2016-01-10 22:14:25] well it would be ideal, I don't know what is the presence of the blog on the DCNF site atm [2016-01-10 22:14:37] f.ex. [2016-01-10 22:14:50] I'm not sure if the blgo is even mentioned on the DCNF site to be honest [2016-01-10 22:15:51] Not as far as I can see. [2016-01-10 22:16:14] it is something to think about, but we probably can leave it at that for now... I have no strong opinion either way, but I found it interesting it was discussed as a part of this meeting in retrospect [2016-01-10 22:16:33] despite being branded as DC++ blog [2016-01-10 22:16:56] I agree. [2016-01-10 22:16:59] the separation between the two seems difficult sometimes (ie. DC++ vs DCNF) [2016-01-10 22:17:14] could be renamed to both - "DC++ / DCNF blog" [2016-01-10 22:17:22] Yeah, and it should be made very clear that DCNF is NOT DC++. [2016-01-10 22:17:33] The entire idea with DCNF is to not be DC++ developers for instance. [2016-01-10 22:17:40] (just DC++ developers*) [2016-01-10 22:17:41] or just "Direct Connect blog". [2016-01-10 22:18:15] Pretorian: indeed, and that's why care probably is necessary in any blog rebranding. [2016-01-10 22:18:41] But, "Direct Connect blog" is as good as anything else I've seen. [2016-01-10 22:18:43] So; vote to improve the state of the blog to be more generic (basically rebranding) (including providing better information on how to post etc). [2016-01-10 22:18:48] +1 [2016-01-10 22:18:56] +1 [2016-01-10 22:18:57] +1 [2016-01-10 22:19:02] +1 [2016-01-10 22:19:10] 4 votes for that branding change. [2016-01-10 22:19:16] All right. [2016-01-10 22:19:20] Any additional items? [2016-01-10 22:19:41] Not from me, this has been productive I think [2016-01-10 22:20:03] remove the developers menu item on the blog then. it's outdated anyway [2016-01-10 22:20:20] eMTee: Yep, fair enough [2016-01-10 22:20:22] Yeah, a good example of a concrete step towards this end. [2016-01-10 22:20:31] Although, should we do something regarding the decision about additional meetings, ie. set a date? [2016-01-10 22:20:53] even if the calendar stuff etc. takes more time [2016-01-10 22:20:55] I say we schedule the next meeting and especially, what we expect should have been done by then. [2016-01-10 22:21:13] seconded [2016-01-10 22:21:34] Let's first set the date of the monthly meetings and then we can discuss what to expect by then. [2016-01-10 22:21:42] Proposals? [2016-01-10 22:22:09] Sunday 14th? a bit more than 1 month. [2016-01-10 22:22:15] (Feb) [2016-01-10 22:22:25] The first sunday of every month, unless it is a calendar holiday, in which case it would have to be pushed? [2016-01-10 22:22:34] I have no particular preference, but in general it's easier with "first sunday" or something like that. [2016-01-10 22:22:47] cool. so Sunday 7th Februray. [2016-01-10 22:22:54] Sounds good to me. [2016-01-10 22:22:55] Works for me. [2016-01-10 22:23:16] Calendar holiday is tricky since we all have different holidays :P [2016-01-10 22:23:16] Feb 7th works for me [2016-01-10 22:23:19] But sure [2016-01-10 22:23:21] 4 agree on the next meeting being held on Sunday 7th Februray. [2016-01-10 22:23:32] Any particular time that works best? [2016-01-10 22:23:47] cologic/iceman, you're the ones in the off/bad time zones. :P [2016-01-10 22:23:55] well re calendar holiday, we can take that to mean the end of the year holidays and stuff like that the major common ones [2016-01-10 22:24:06] 19 CET, like this one, was perfect for me. [2016-01-10 22:24:42] It's important to note that the monthly meetings should really be "any items", we don't have to do the whole vote counting etc unless we want to. [2016-01-10 22:24:52] 19 CET is fine for me [2016-01-10 22:24:56] Pretorian: I'd have to check on relative daylight savings shifts; the US and Europe seem to shift differently, resulting in all 3 combinations of -1/0/+1 off the 'neutral' geographical difference [2016-01-10 22:25:43] Oh, perhaps we should make an effort to avoid meetings on Sundays subject to DST shifts to keep things simple [2016-01-10 22:25:56] I don't think any such shifts occur within the next month, so, 19 CET works here. [2016-01-10 22:26:50] So what shall be done by the 7th? [2016-01-10 22:27:21] Ah, http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/b.html has a table summarizing this. Between March 13 and 27th will be special, likewise October 30th and November 6th. [2016-01-10 22:27:30] the email for legal advice should have been drafted, ready to send (or even better, already sent). [2016-01-10 22:27:45] Agreed, poy. [2016-01-10 22:28:01] I will look at different options related to the particulars of shifting the website to a VCS and make some kind of "presentation" on it for further discussion, though I son't object anyone else doing the same [2016-01-10 22:28:19] *don't [2016-01-10 22:28:42] I'll update the website re member list [2016-01-10 22:29:11] Set up of the calendar itself, of course! [2016-01-10 22:29:12] I will try to remember to update the phpbb installation on dcbase [2016-01-10 22:29:26] that has been neglected far too long [2016-01-10 22:29:45] what is the spam situation like, do we have trash on the board much? [2016-01-10 22:29:46] Website shall be updated with information about upcoming meetings [2016-01-10 22:29:57] Two-three a month, IIRC [2016-01-10 22:30:26] I'll look into setting a channel up on freenode to serve as fallback. [2016-01-10 22:30:30] have they been cleaned recently? either way recaptcha seems to be holding reasonably well? [2016-01-10 22:30:31] I will either finish the HTTPS conversion or discover harder-to-avoid reasons why. Currently, a couple of the sub-sites seem to be defined elsewhere, which causes odd issues. [2016-01-10 22:31:08] cologic: if you need help with that ask, I did the nginx config after all [2016-01-10 22:31:15] I will address some of the rebranding of the blog in addition to the donations. [2016-01-10 22:31:29] Crise: alright. [2016-01-10 22:32:17] sorry was afk [2016-01-10 22:32:17] ie. what do you mean by sub sitets? you should only have to define the certificates to be used once, and then it is just listen ... ssl; inside server block [2016-01-10 22:32:41] i am essentially on a gmt schedule xue to working nights [2016-01-10 22:33:36] due* [2016-01-10 22:34:03] Ok, I think we're stated enough items. [2016-01-10 22:34:04] Yes, that's what I do, but the forum doesn't show up in the same config file that www.dcbase.org does, for example. I believe at least one of archive.dcbase.org or builds.dcbase.org also seems separate. Thus, when I set up each server { ... } block with SSL, and enabled CloudFlare's back-end-requiring SSL mode, it broke on those sites and I had to roll back to "flexible". [2016-01-10 22:34:15] If people want to do more, that's fine, but let's keep things realistic. [2016-01-10 22:34:32] you have quite a lot on your sleeves Pretorian. ;) [2016-01-10 22:35:09] poy: Well, I'm part of the boarding, so perhaps I can "delegate" stuff to members? ;) [2016-01-10 22:35:13] board... [2016-01-10 22:35:44] Does anyone have additional items? [2016-01-10 22:37:25] cologic: I will refresh my memory, and get back to you via PM [2016-01-10 22:37:25] I do not have any additional items. [2016-01-10 22:37:55] can't think of anything else to discuss. [2016-01-10 22:38:01] no additions here [2016-01-10 22:38:32] Ok, this will conclude the 2016-01-10 annual meeting of DCNF, thank you all